<p>It’s NEVER a valid procedure to compare base acceptance rates alone to derive an inference about selectivity. That’s because different pools of applicants apply to different colleges, based on their own estimates of their chances. I’ll repost here an example I have posted earlier.</p>
<p>If Podunk Community College started a more vigorous marketing campaign, and encouraged many more applications than it has received before, it might find that the number of applications submitted was far above its capacity to enroll students, and thus find, even taking into account less than 100 percent yield of admitted students who actually enroll, that it could not admit all applicants. If Podunk has a 10 percent yield, a new first-year class size of 1,000, and receives 200,000 applications, it might issue a press release, after it admits 10,000 applicants, saying “Podunk admission rate down to 5 percent, lower than any Ivy League college.” But a thoughtful reader of that press release, even one who believes everything that Podunk reported, might still have genuine doubts that Podunk is more selective than Columbia, not to mention Harvard. Base acceptance rate is one interesting statistic about a college’s annual admission cycle, but it is not the sole competent evidence about which college is most selective. Scholars of the college admission process have some genuine disagreements about how to show which college is most “selective,” but NO ONE thinks that base acceptance rate is the last word on that subject. </p>
<p>P.S. Some other colleges don’t release figures in a way that allows this comparison, but I rather suspect that a 10 percent base acceptance rate for undergraduate international students is HIGHER than that at the other colleges mentioned a few posts above.</p>
<p>^ Agreed, I’ll try to find academic credential statistics of the international pool of applicants.</p>
<p>My guess is that the international applicants to Berkeley are as self-selective, and have comparable credentials as HYPS.</p>
<p>You guys asked for statistics…I provide them, and then you say it’s not good enough. At LEAST Berkeley has the f’n BALLS to post this data. Let’s see some data from HYPS…I wonder if they air their dirty laundry as freely.</p>
<p>All the undergraduate colleges in the country answer some Common Data Set inquiries, and those tend to show that HYPS admit a group of students with very conspicuous credentials. The one international competition I follow closely, the International Mathematics Olympiad, includes a lot of international students who aspire to United States universities, and I have a pretty good idea which universities attract the most applications from that group of international students.</p>
<p>The claim on behalf of Berkeley, a college that mostly admits domestic students, is that its international students are at quite the same level as the international students admitted to HYPS. The Common Data Set filings show that there is a quite significant difference in the overall enrolled student population between Berkeley and HYPS, and also shows that Berkeley has the lowest yield, so if the international students are equally prepared, the domestic students must be considerably less prepared. A way to get a reality check on that is to look at specific course syllabuses at each college, to see how challenging the first-year undergraduate courses are. </p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Thanks for sharing those very specific figures for Berkeley. What’s your sense, as someone who knows the university, of where international students who are admitted to Berkeley go if they are admitted but do not enroll? </p>
<p>Once again I will say that I certainly do NOT deride Berkeley. It is a fine universities and the graduates of Berkeley I know personally are smart people. My claim here is that even though Berkeley is great, HYPS are a little bit more great.</p>
<p>Globally, I’d say Berkeley is as prestigious as HYPSM+C and is about as well known as Harvard or Stanford.</p>
<p>Some points to consider:
Outside US, there would be more people who recognize Berkeley than, let’s say Princeton, because the name of Berkeley would catch their eyes more frequently on magazines (not to mention that Berkeley is ranked higher than Yale and Princeton in some published world rankings).</p>
<ol>
<li><p>Eventually US colleges that excel in science and engineering research would become more and more popular globally. This is because science and engineering fields are more ‘transferrable’ accross different countries and cultures. E.g. The fact that Yale Law program is the best in US bears little relevance to Thai or Vietnamese or Serbian who are interested to study in US. Compare this with the appeal given by Stanford or Cal’s engineering program. This is also why Caltech is gaining more and more global popularity despite its narrow focus compared to other colleges with broader focus such as Columbia or Penn.</p></li>
<li><p>Despite its less prominence in Professional graduate schools, it is definitely the leader in other graduate schools, trumping every other schools on the NRC ranking lists. </p></li>
<li><p>Undergraduate quality bears little relevance when we talk about ‘being renowned’ in international stage.</p></li>
</ol>
<p>Other High School (i.e. not CA public/private) - OOS and International
Highest SAT: applicants, admits, enrollees
500 - 599: 1,023, 43, 31 (% admit = 4.2%, % yield = 72%)
600 - 699: 3,253, 279, 114 (% admit = 8.6%, % yield = 41%)
700 - 800: 2,734, 946, 213 (% admit = 34.6%, % yield = 23%)</p>
<p>My sense on low % yield for Berkeley is other students are admitted to more prestigious private universities with better financial aid. Competition for top students is tougher.</p>
<p>Do you know of a similar stats breakdown for top privates? Until that data is available, there can’t be a direct comparison.</p>
<p>
What course do you suggest? Frankly, there are no remedial classes at Berkeley and the academic competition is very intense in the lower-division courses.</p>
<p>IIT is no where near the top in therms of the most “world renowned”. It might not even be the most “selective” when compare to some other Asia universities. [BBC</a> NEWS | UK | Education | Mathematicians set Chinese test](<a href=“http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/education/6589301.stm]BBC”>http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/education/6589301.stm)
If IIT is among the top then PKU, Seoul national university, and university of tokyo also deserve a spot.</p>
<p>SeoulDae is full of brilliant people but definitely not prestigious outside of Korea. Non-anglophone universities are really at a tremendous disadvantage–which is why Korea U teaches so much in English now</p>
<p>Admission to Princeton is extremely competitive. In recent years, we have been able to offer admission to only around 11 percent of those who applied. </p>
<p>Interesting to compare MIT and Berkeley international admit rates…similar number of applicants and about 100 more admits for Berkeley (a much larger school).</p>
<p>MIT International students:
Applied 2,745
Admitted 119 </p>
<p>Cal International Students:
Applicants 2,554
Admitted 258</p>
<p>Now I’m not talking in terms of true quality of education or strength of given academic departments, etc., but when it comes to pure renown, fame, prestige or whatever you want to call it, Harvard is way out in first place and Berkeley is way back in the pack.</p>
<p>Look at it this way:
Stanford is sometimes called the Harvard of the west.
Duke and Emory are sometimes called the Harvard of the south.
Chicago is sometimes called the Harvard of the midwest.
McGill is sometimes called the Harvard of Canada
Univ. of Tokyo (and others) is sometimes called the Harvard of Japan.
And so on…</p>
<p>Pick Korea or Japan or France or pretty much any country with universities and google on the phrase “the Harvard of _______” (fill in the blank with country in question) and you will get a bunch of hits.</p>
<p>Nobody in these countries ever refers to their school as “the Berkeley of _____.” </p>
<p>As prestigious and well known as HYPSM…Not the <em>most</em> prestigious.
It’s his/her experience and opinion…that’s validated by some world surveys:</p>
<p>And via Peer review in the QS survey, all of these universities are tied for #1:
Cambridge
Toronto
Harvard
Princeton
Yale
Stanford
Berkeley
Oxford
MIT</p>
<p>If you look at Asian college-related websites and forums (you would have to know Korean, Japanese, or Chinese), many Asians who doesn’t really know about US education think Berkeley is at par with Stanford, Harvard, Mit, etc.. in terms of prestige. I also have relatives in Korea and visit Korea once every two years. Every time I visit the country, I always get the impression from college-focused high schoolers that Berkeley is a very prestigious university than it actually is here. </p>
<p>And also if you look at global college rankings made by Asian countries, like the QS Top Universities posted by UCBChemEGrad, you will see that Berkeley constantly ranks among the top 5 in almost every field. Look in to more college rankings made by Asian countries, I guarantee that you will see Berkeley in top 10 in the world in every survey. </p>
<p>I agree Berkeley is not as prestigious as HYPSM in US, but globally, it is more well known and thought to be more prestigious than most ivy and other ivy caliber schools.</p>