<p>"So the kid from Podunk High is better off taking as many APs as s/he can; or taking a mix of APs and college courses."</p>
<p>Yes, the kid is better off taking AP courses. But, no, the kid is not necessarily better off taking "as many APs as he/she can." That is the very point at issue.</p>
<p>And I submit that the adcoms are not being forthcoming about what else the kids who supposedly have 4 or fewer APs bring to the table. Six college courses, maybe, so the equivalent or better of 10 APs, total? This is why I said earlier, I would like to know what the adcoms are not saying when they focus entirely on APs.
Of course, if a student is an athlete or a world-class musician, or has already published a novel, that's a different question. Ditto a student from North Dakota, a first-generation student, someone who grew up on a reservation...But your typical student who goes to a high school that offers 10 APs but took only 4 is probably at a disadvantage vis-a-vis other applicants from that school and also applicants from elsewhere.</p>
<p>cannot agree more. If my S took classes at HYP, and had added recommendations from these profs, any adcom would recognize the accomplishments. But if S in an unknown school, APs can be evaluated more easily than local U or CC.</p>
<p>There are ~35,000 high schools in the US, from which Stanford accepts 2,500 kids each year. Ignoring international applicants, the odds ain't great for no-name Kid from Podunk High. Without a major hook, the AP/IB program is probably the ONLY way said kid can even get a look from the Stanford adcom (not to mention other highly selective schools).</p>
<p>i.m.o. it is just counter-intuitive that <em>non</em>-hooked admits (as bluebayou mentioned) have an <em>average</em> of 4 completed AP's at matriculation. I do not know what percentage of hooked admits make up a Stanford freshman class, but it seems more reasonable that the quoted average includes many unhooked students with 10 AP's, others with 2 AP's + c.college credits, & many hooked applicants with zero AP's. If those broad categories are about evenly distributed, there's your 4-average right there.</p>
<p>I'm familiar with the AP-mania that exists in many CA schools. Excellent CA schools are few, relative to the whole State school population. The great public schools are as large as the non-great public schools. Many students/families feel that the only way to differentiate oneself within such masses, is to load up on quantity. ("The person with the most APs wins" mentality.) It is very difficult to get oneself noticed except quantifiably, unless you happen to be a super-charged leader prominent in government, debate, & other high-visibility activities. So it's an "insane" competition to load up on more APs than the next person. I've seen this syndrome, & it ain't pretty. These students run around like junior executives burning the candle at both ends, & one does wonder about the quality of output & the depth of learning achieved. But since many of these same students feel the need (or have the active desire) to be accepted to UCBerkeley or UCLA, & they know that the UC system is numbers-driven, at the very least they want a "safety" of one of those. They know that they will be competing against in-State h.s. seniors with double-digit #'s of AP classes.</p>
<p>Blue,
No, the article only referred to "average number of APs." I'll try to dig it up if I can.</p>
<p>However, our high school has sent four students to Stanford in the past five years. I have spoken to either the student of the parent in each case. None of these students had more than 5 APs, one girl actually only took 2 AP classes. Our school offers 13 AP classes. Each of the four students was actively involved with a major EC of some sort and each did take many of our school's honors classes. </p>
<p>I guess I should add that our </p>
<p>(1) our school is a private Catholic high school with a good reputation for college prep. Students are required to take a religion class each year, which is not considered an academic subject by the majority of colleges. So, kids at our school generally have 5 classes a year that they can take (unless they do summer school, they can add an extra elective class that way but no core classes are offered in summer school). </p>
<p>(2) the school does limit the number of AP classes that students are allowed to take, using a formula based on EC's. The application process to actually get into AP classes is also intense. None of this is noted on the school's profile that is sent to colleges, however (I have checked), nor is the average number of APs taken listed. It does clearly say that 13 AP classes are offered. It also notes that the school has a 98% pass rate (3 or higher) on AP exams.</p>
<p>(3) However, according to the head GC, it is the exception to the rule for students to take more than 5-6 AP classes, the majority of students who qualify to take APs, take 3-4. She says that the GC's check "most rigorous course work" on recommendations when students take 4 or more AP's. Off the top of her head, she said she could only remember a handful of students in the ten years she's been there that have taken more than 6.</p>
<p>(4) our school does have a full complement of honors classes. Most of the top students (top 25%) are in full honors classes with a few AP classes each year. Many of the honors classes are in AP subjects (i.e., we don't have AP chemistry or AP physics, we have honors physics, honors chemistry). In a few cases, there is both an AP and honors class for the same subject (APUSH and Honors US History). Students do have the option of taking the AP exam in that subject, but the word I hear is that few do. This is probably the biggest difference between our school and many public high schools.</p>
<p>(5) the school actively discourages students from taking college classes during the academic year. </p>
<p>(6) 98% of students attend four year colleges. We send about 10% of each graduating class to HYSP each year, another 20% or so to top 50 schools, another 50% to the UC's, and the rest to a variety of schools up and down the ladder.</p>
<p>thanks, carolyn. </p>
<p>WOW. 98% to four-year schools, it definitely makes it easier to stand out if one attends a private, prep-type school vs. the run-of-the-mill public. </p>
<p>btw: since we have a college rep (barkowitz) who posts from MIT in other threads, I asked him to join in our musing, but with real numbers!</p>
<p>(bluebayou, Daniel Barkowitz is the director of financial aid at MIT and isn't likely to have easy access to that info. I've ping'd one of the other admissions guys who also posts at CC regularly (benjones), but he's out on the traveling admissions roadshow until early Oct., so it's a toss-up whether he'll respond to this or not. Ben, you out there?)</p>
<p>Thanks to both Mootmom & ADad for their invitations to contribute my opinions to this thread. Sorry for the delayed response; as mootmom noted above, I've been out on fall recruitment travel with limited access to the internet for the last 3 weeks.</p>
<p>As with most of my posts in the parents' forum, I'll try to respond both as an MIT adcom and also as a parent. This'll be sortof long, sorry.</p>
<p>First, the MIT adcom perspective.</p>
<p>I don't know the exact numbers; I couldn't tell you even if I thought it would be helpful. Numbers mean nothing to us because ~70% of our applicant pool is qualified in those terms.</p>
<p>Based on the thousands of apps I saw last year both in selection committee and as a reader, I can tell you that the average # of AP's for admitted kids was 5 or 6 (that's total for all 4 years of HS - i.e. 1-2 per year if evenly distributed). Many admits (most likely the majority) had no college classes. The most common AP's taken were in math and science (no surprise, it's MIT). The overwhelming majority got 4's and 5's on all tests.</p>
<p>I'll pause here to add that I frequently saw kids with perfect SAT scores and perfect grades and a gazillion AP classes get rejected. Why? Because often these kids knew how to grind, but brought nothing else to the table. And that's not who we're looking for at MIT. We admit kids who show genuine passion. Sure AP's can be one of many passion indicators - but I emphasize one of many.</p>
<p>When I was on the road, kids asked me repeatedly whether or not they should take a given AP class.</p>
<p>"Well," I'd respond, "would you be taking it because you genuinely want to, or simply because you think it will get you into college?"</p>
<p>Sometimes they didn't know the difference, which is a tragedy that deserves its own thread. But I digress.</p>
<p>And this is where you all start saying that adcoms are talking out of both sides of our mouths: we encourage kids to follow their hearts in the choices they make, and then as adcoms we want to see that they've taken "the most challenging courseload."</p>
<p>To which I say: guys, I work for MIT! If a kid doesn't want to be taking a challenging courseload in high school, that kid is certainly not going to be happy here.</p>
<p>Quite simply, the students who are happiest here are those who thrive on challenge. Most of our admits have taken AP math and science because they would have been bored silly in the regular classes. Indeed, they genuinely wanted to take those classes. They don't look at MIT as the prize; they look at MIT as the logical next step. It's an important distinction.</p>
<p>That said, AP's are not the only way to demonstrate that one is passionate and likes challenge. Read Anthony's story for an example:
<a href="http://anthony.mitblogs.com/archives/2005/06/hello_im_anthon.html%5B/url%5D">http://anthony.mitblogs.com/archives/2005/06/hello_im_anthon.html</a></p>
<p>When faced with the choice, we will always choose "the right match*" over numbers. We're not lying when we say that. You've heard me beat that sentiment to death in other threads, so I won't do so here.</p>
<p>(*Match = mission, collaborative spirit, hands-on, balance, character, and passion, among others.)</p>
<p>But the reality is that when you have 10,500+ applications for ~1000 spots and 70% of the pool has great numbers, your pool is going to have plenty of kids who have the passion and the match and the scores/grades/AP's. So we admit those kids - what other choice do we have?</p>
<p>But then (understandably) you guys say "Look! You need X, Y, and Z to get into MIT!" To clarify, we don't require those things; many of our admits just happen to have them. And, I might add, for the right reasons.</p>
<p>This brings me to the more important part, where we toss my affiliation with MIT out the window and I give you my thoughts as a parent.</p>
<p>There is only one coin. There are many sides to the coin, but there is only one coin. And you can flip it however you like.</p>
<p>So when a parent says to me, "Why does HYPSM put so much emphasis on AP's?" I reply "Why do you put so much emphasis on HYPSM?" When a parent says "My kid's value as a person/student shouldn't be measured by how many AP's he/she has taken" I say "...and your kid's value as a person/student shouldn't be measured by whether or not he/she goes to HYPSM." I could go on and on.</p>
<p>There are literally hundreds of amazing colleges and universities out there (some of which actually admit kids with no AP's!). Many of them would actually be better matches for your child. Many of them would provide your child with a better education. Most importantly, many of them would ultimately give your child a greater sense of happiness and fulfillment. The right match will do that.</p>
<p>And the match goes both ways. We try to determine if your kid is a good match for MIT. Your kid should be trying to determine which school is the best match for him/her. As a parent, what are you doing to help him/her figure that out?</p>
<p>Here's a hint: if you're spending time obsessing that a lack of AP's is going to keep your kid out of Stanford, you're missing the point.</p>
<p>As I told the kids in my blog, I had a wonderful college experience that I wouldn't trade for anything, at a school that is currently only #23 on the USNWR LAC list (The HORROR!). I got a phenomenal education and can certainly hold my own against any Ivy grad. As a bonus I got to grow up, get married, have kids, buy a house, land a great job, and enjoy life.</p>
<p>I took one AP class in high school.</p>
<p>Make sure your kids are choosing their schools for the right reasons. Name, status, "brand" - these are not the right reasons. Let your kids be kids. Let them follow their hearts. Encourage them to have a present, not just a future. Don't let them define themselves by which colleges accept them - and don't let them define themselves by doing things only to get into certain colleges.</p>
<p>The machine is fed from all sides. USNWR, the media in general, the GC's, the parents, the colleges and universities, the high-priced independent counselors, the test prep people...</p>
<p>My kids are still many years away from college, and I'm no expert on the parent side of this process. But I do know one thing: I will fight to protect them from all of this, to help them with perspective and clarity. Because if I don't, who will?</p>
<p>Because if we don't, who will?</p>
<p>-B</p>
<p>Ben,</p>
<p>That's some wisdom of the ages! Thank you for your post.</p>
<p>very interesting discussion. consider this. my son attends a small high school that does NOT offer one single AP class. we will soon see if that has any affect on admissions, i guess. it didn't keep him from scoring well on the ACT, though, so we'll have to wait and see.</p>
<p>So when a parent says to me, "Why does HYPSM put so much emphasis on AP's?" I reply "Why do you put so much emphasis on HYPSM?" When a parent says "My kid's value as a person/student shouldn't be measured by how many AP's he/she has taken" I say "...and your kid's value as a person/student shouldn't be measured by whether or not he/she goes to HYPSM." I could go on and on.
precisely
I want my daughter to have 4 years of solid academic courses in high school- however unless she is on an AP track- she apparently isn't considered to need a college prep schedule.
I want her to go to college or at least have had the classes to prepare her- but I don't think she needs to be taking AP/college classes in 10th grade even though that is the only way she can get a year of sophmore history.
The peer pressure is unbelivable- not only do students expect themselves and each other to be taking as many AP classes as they are allowed, but they are obligated to get a 4.0 in them and change teachers if needed to acheive that goal.
I appreciate that my daughters school allows her to take advanced classes in the areas that she is interested, but I also would appreciate more support for areas where she is struggling. Ya know there are lots of kids who don't peak in high school, who might even be late bloomers, but they need to be challenged and supported too.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Quite simply, the students who are happiest here are those who thrive on challenge. Most of our admits have taken AP math and science because they would have been bored silly in the regular classes. Indeed, they genuinely wanted to take those classes. They don't look at MIT as the prize; they look at MIT as the logical next step. It's an important distinction.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Just one paragraph from a post with a lot to absorb. Every parent and child who posts here should read that post and really, really think about what it says. Thank you Mr. Jones!</p>
<p>Thanks for posting, Ben. I watched the admissions results on CC for MIT for the last couple of admissions rounds - and it was pretty clear that MIT was looking for something other than just numbers. </p>
<p>I think that one of the problems with competitive admissions has to do with a desire for certainty on the part of the applicant and the applicant's parents. It's easy to focus on numbers because you can pin them down, measure them, and so on. Somewhere, how well the college fits the applicant gets lost in the applicant trying to morph into something that the college wants to see.</p>
<p>Ben,
Thank you. That was one of the best things I've ever read about the college admissions arms race. I do think that many of us (and I certainly include myself in the bunch!) have become bogged down into trying to figure out the "right" formula to get our kids into the "best" schools. As Ohio_Mom says much of this is because of the sheer uncertainty regarding college admissions these days but part of it is also the desire we all seem to have (again, perfectly normal) to give our kids the "best" of everything. Unfortunately, in our drive to give our kids the best of everything, we may indeed take important things away from them --- their self-esteem, for one, if they can't handle 5 AP classes in sophomore year or manage to take 20 APs but still don't get that coveted spot at a top school we've implicitly promised them by urging them to load up on AP classes, extracurriculars, test prep classes, and all the other things that go along with trying to manage the formula. </p>
<p>Plesae understand, I'm not saying that kids who can handle the challenge and LOVE the challenge as Ben says shouldn't max out on APs, I'm just suggesting that maybe it is necessary for EVERY kid to do so --- and even when kids do so, we should make it clear that they should not be doing it "just for college".</p>
<p>That was really well-said, benjones. I think this should be preserved somewhere so it doesn't get lost in the threads. Thanks.</p>
<p>I've posted a pointer to it in the "Writing Awards" thread on the Parents Cafe, but would wholeheartedly support preserving it somewhere else, if appropriate.</p>
<p>If your school didn't offer any AP classes, MIT won't penalize you at all in admissions -- they will simply look for other ways that you have made the most of the opportunities given to you. :)</p>
<p>Thanks for the response. I find myself reading MIT board just to read Benjones. Such sensible responses. (& his discussions with the other ben-galen)</p>
<p>Our HS imposes limits on AP courses because they are taught like college courses, with many supplemental readings, research papers, final projects, etc. Adcoms recognize our district expcectations and give our students a "break". They cannot take ap's before jr year and may not take more than 3 aps jr and sr year.</p>
<p>As a result, our student with 6 high scoring AP's seem to be at no disadvantage at the most selective of colleges.</p>
<p>And perhaps they are a bit less stressed</p>