"Whoever has the most APs wins"

Parent Cafe
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<p>Like originaloog, my s's school does not automatically allow you to register for an AP. The space is limited, and you have to be "approved" to take every class you register for. My older s. desperately wanted to take AP Economics, but as a heavy math/science kid, he had elected one year to take a "lighter" (ie Regular rather than Honors) history class, and even though he got an A in the class, they used this as reason to tell him he couldn't take AP Econ. Never mind that Economics has a strong math foundation-- the History Dept (who offers Econ) is known for being very restrictive with their classes. He did take a fair # of AP classes (6, I believe), but I can only hope that colleges consider the fact that at some high schools it is not as easy to get into the AP classes as at others. And, the Honors classes at this HS are no cakewalk either.</p>

<p>I appreciate and respect Benjones sage advice. Like benjones, I took far fewer APs in my day (2) and I attended a good LAC (#13 in US news). But lets be honest, the college admissions games is very different now than it was in "my day". I wonder if I would be able to get into that same school today with my stats from years gone by. Many more students applying for those same small # of slots. Someone posted a link to a graph showing the # of students applying to college (the children of the baby boomers). I believe the peak year will be the HS class of 2009. I can't find the link off hand. If someone can, I'd appreciate seeing it again. Bottom line, as much as I'd love to believe that the # of competitive/AP classes isn't all that important in the scheme of things, I am having a hard time getting my hands around that one. The big universities have a formula to cull down their applicant pool. There is a certain expectation of what kind of academic background aa HS student will need to be competitive at the top schools. While it is important to look at what sets some students apart, makes them stand out, there is also a basic core foundation that they will need to have to be looked at, true benjones? At the info session at the top tier schools, the question was ALWAYS asked "which is better- to get a B in an AP class or an A in an Honors class? The answer was ALWAYS "Get an A in the AP class".</p>

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<p>I thought Ben Jones made excellent points. I particularly liked his reminder to fit the college to the kid rather than trying to fit the kid to the college.</p>

<p>But this thread has taken several turns. One involved APs vs. college classes, one that Ben Jones did not address. I will repeat that, in general, APs are more portable than college classes. There are many colleges that will accept other college classes, but it is not possible to know iin junior year or even at the beginning of senior year which college one will be applying to, and into which one will be accepted. Taking APs, in this light, is the more cautious path.
Some posters report that their school does not offer APs yet the students do well in the college sweepstakes. That is true of several high school I know. But those schools are well known to adcoms of top colleges AND their students do well on the AP exams. Other schools have IB programs which are just as prestigious as APs. Still others, such as inner city or rural schools, have limited resources. This will be taken into account by adcoms.
About the title of the thread, I never thought that whoever has the most APs wins. I don't think it makes a difference to adcoms if a student has 10 or 18 APs. But there is a difference between 2 and 4-5 APs. </p>

<p>Ben Jones is right in saying that MIT looks for signs of passion in an applicant; passion is not manifested in taking a large number of APs. We don't know what else the typical MIT student had besides the 5-6 APs. USAMO, IMO? Some other national award? These probably show passion more clearly than APs. </p>

<p>Several of my S's friends are currently at MIT. I doubt that they took a huge number of APs. But they all took some courses at the Harvard Extension School; and they have all been captains of the Science Team , Robotics team, etc... and have taken part in other extra-curricular activities that showed their passion for science and engineering. They are a good fit for MIT and MIT is a good fit for them.</p>

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<p>While I also appreciate the benjones reply, I come down on the side of jym's last sentence when it comes to recent history of those admitted to MIT-level schools. The fact is, the MIT's, the HYP's, etc. are more often getting both aspects, or I should say three: passion, ability, and achievement. Yes, colleges may verify the passion behind the achievement, but more often than not they don't have to choose between those two, at least these days. D's friend, recently admitted to MIT, had over 6 AP's, consistent proven interest in engineering (including several summer workshops), major co-curricular involvement, major community service, + outstanding achievement in one e.c. The high school didn't have a robotics team, etc. She might have chosen something like that instead of an AP or two, so the points marite is making are not contradictory. It would be nice for more high schools to offer more achievement-directed alternatives to AP's which are not classes but do show capability & commitment.</p>

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<p>
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The high school didn't have a robotics team, etc. She might have chosen something like that instead of an AP or two

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<p>Reading the MIT student's blog referenced in Ben's post, I get the feeling that MIT is looking for kids who would take the initiative to start a Robotics team (whatever that is) or equivalent if their HS didn't have one.</p>

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<p>I don't know..</p>

<p>My daughter was an AP National Scholar, for what it's worth, a recognition bestowed for taking godzillions AP courses, and getting virtually all 5s on them.</p>

<p>She took more AP classes than anyone else at her school.</p>

<p>She still got rejected at the only Ivy League college she applied to.</p>

<p>The school didn't weight grades, and she felt that several students who got better grades but in easier classes were ranked above her by the school.</p>

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<p>I agree with Audiophile's general point that schools such as MIT are indeed looking for students who are willing to take the initiative to start new teams.
It is possible for students to start new teams or clubs IF the school is willing to provide the support. For example, our high school (re-) started a creative writing club with the help of two teachers as coaches. Such support is crucial, as students may not use school space unless there is a teacher present.</p>

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If a kid doesn't want to be taking a challenging courseload in high school, that kid is certainly not going to be happy here.

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<p>Great post by Ben Jones (all of it, not just the quote above). Although admission to some elite schools might be a golden ticket to coast for the next 4 years, schools like MIT are certainly not going to be a good fit for kids who do not WANT to take the most challenging courses available, or enter the most challenging competitions, motivated by the pure joy of learning (at least in their areas of interest). And yes, that might mean summer programs or college courses, not just APs. Kids who would be happier spending their summers by the pool than attending a math camp or academic enrichment program might also be happier at a college that isn't looking for a high level of academic drive.</p>

<p>I'm also a little unsympathetic, and I imagine some ad coms are also although they don't say so, to the scenario of "my school doesn't offer X,Y,Z", or "my school won't let me do A,B,C". Ad coms say they won't penalize kids who go to bad schools. But kids who say that are competing against kids who will create opportunities for themselves to go beyond what their school hands them. With all of the resources at the library or on the internet (including MIT's own OpenCourseWare), "I can't take math senior year because my school doesn't offer calculus", for instance, isn't much of an excuse coming from a student who thinks they want to go to a school like MIT.</p>

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<p>The reassuring thing about the benjones post is that there are INTRINSIC qualities that make a kid a good fit for a school. So there is no point in parents trying to concoct a military plan to ensure their kid will gain admission. Yes, you can make your kid hit certain notes but it won't give him the 'musical ear' the school is looking for. Kids who belong at MIT will probably find their way there with nothing more than garden variety parental support and encouragement.</p>

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<p>
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It is possible for students to start new teams or clubs IF the school is willing to provide the support. For example, our high school (re-) started a creative writing club with the help of two teachers as coaches. Such support is crucial, as students may not use school space unless there is a teacher present.

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<p>Actually, the support of the school is not crucial. If the school is resistant, students can see if there are meeting rooms available at the public library, at a local church or community center, or even in the basement or garage of one of the students. </p>

<p>As for coaches/advisors, if teachers are unwilling or unable to help out, students can look for community members, some of whom may have far more expertise and interest than many high school teachers. </p>

<p>One possibility--try an assisted living center. There may be retired folks there who would love to work with teens. Our local assisted living center has retired journalists, writers, scientists, engineers, and teachers. And they have very nice meeting rooms.</p>

<p>And, if the students have the initiative and willingness to take ownership, the "coaches" don't have to have any expertise themselves beyond common sense and good judgment about possible safety hazards--the adult volunteer "coaches" can essentially function as chaperones rather than experts.</p>

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<p>Wisteria:</p>

<p>Good points. I was thinking of our school where teacher supervision is required. The Science Team meets in one of the science labs. It also benefits from the help of volunteers, both college students and working adults. There are, however, many activities that can be done away from a school.</p>

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<p>"I'm also a little unsympathetic, and I imagine some ad coms are also although they don't say so, to the scenario of "my school doesn't offer X,Y,Z", or "my school won't let me do A,B,C". Ad coms say they won't penalize kids who go to bad schools. But kids who say that are competing against kids who will create opportunities for themselves to go beyond what their school hands them. With all of the resources at the library or on the internet (including MIT's own OpenCourseWare), "I can't take math senior year because my school doesn't offer calculus", for instance, isn't much of an excuse coming from a student who thinks they want to go to a school like MIT."</p>

<p>Having read the entire thread again, including Ben's thoughtful post, I cannot help feeling that the conclusion of Texas137 illustrates the general opinion. I do not want to single out Texas137's post, but I have to voice my dismay in reading it. </p>

<p>What is the underlying message here: </p>

<p>Despite the fact that, "*The colleges SAY and WRITE that would NOT penalize students who attend schools that fail to showcase the AP program. In other words, if your do NOT have AP, the colleges will evaluate your achievement based on the AVAILABLE curriculum" * students should NOT expect great sympathy from the "people in the know" If you do NOT have the AP at your schools, you BETTER scram to get access to some. </p>

<p>First why? Because, you HAVE to to keep up with the Joneses ... or better said, with others who will send an application to the Ben Joneses of the academic world. </p>

<p>Second why? Because if you fail do to so, expect to be viewed as a slacker who does not have the drive to "create" his or her opportunities, especially if the opoprtunities establishes a level of passion. </p>

<p>Well, this is exactly what I consider so wickedly pernicious about the current system. In so many words, it means that having "sufficient" AP is the golden rule. As Ben said, MIT does not 'require" a miminum number of APs, it just happens that most of their applicants HAVE them. Obviously, with the deluge of AP and the "consensus view" that the more the merrier, how could it possibly BE different? In the same vein, if it would "happen" that most MIT students have attended MITE or one of the famous summer camps, would this mean that it becomes "standard". I am really AFRAID it may get to that point! </p>

<p>Going back to my earlier post, I still believe that if colleges REALLY wanted students to have normal high school careers AND normal summers, they COULD cease to reward the over-achievers. How? Tell the world that it does NOT matter how many AP you have because only TWO would count as a criterion for admission AND credit. Some schools place stringent restrictions on LOR ... so it would not be that hard that the submission of an unreasonable number of AP is NOT viewed positively, unless it is part of an automatic reporting system. If all AP are reported, students could mark their TWO chosen tests. </p>

<p>Let me stress that I do NOT consider the AP to be a bad program. It has great merits. However, it is the way the AP program has transformed students into trophy hunters and merit badge collectors for the sole purpose of "looking better" to adcoms that is SO bad. Further, since it is very doubtful that the AP program was designed to establish additional merit for admissions, a system that rewards its excesses is inherently perverse. </p>

<p>As Ben wrote, one should be able to answer the question about why he plans to take additional APs. Actually, we should not really expect 16 or 17 years old to KNOW the answer, as they play the game by reacting to an existing set of rules and following the advice of "people in the know". I have no doubt that the implementation of CLEAR laws of diminishing returns of the AP rewards would have a drastic impact on the number of AP taken. </p>

<p>This should not hinder the truly passionate or advanced student to take all the AP he'd like. It may, however, help the students who HAVE to take AP to just look more polished.</p>

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<p>audiophile,
The MIT-admit in question took plenty of initiative, in many different areas, & for those she was recognized, etc. There did not seem to be enough interest for a robotics team per se. She initiated other activities.</p>

<p>Love the comment from someone about the "military plan."</p>

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<p>
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The MIT-admit in question took plenty of initiative, in many different areas, & for those she was recognized, etc.

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<p>I assumed as much...</p>

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<p>I think what SBmom said is the key:</p>

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The reassuring thing about the benjones post is that there are INTRINSIC qualities that make a kid a good fit for a school. So there is no point in parents trying to concoct a military plan to ensure their kid will gain admission.

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<p>This was the way it was for my S. He had six APs, a lot in our part of the woods, but not a lot in other places. He only took the tests for 3 of them. Never did a college course. Never did a summer program. Just portrayed who he genuinely was to his first choice school-- not HYPSM, but fairly close. And he was fortunate enough to be accepted--because, i think, he figured out which was the place that really fit him, and they agreed. </p>

<p>I actually think that in a way he was fortunate to come from a high school that does not offer many bells and whistles, because then I think the colleges really aren't expecting to see them.</p>

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<p>Wisteria-
I wish the many good suggestions you make were easy to implement. However, in practicality, there are unfortunately often many roadblocks. For example, my s. actually DID try to start up a science olympiad team at his school. He did all the research, contacted other schools in town, wrote up a proposal, developed a budget, presented it to the deans, got the funding and the support (including a faculty advisor). That all happened junior year. Senior year, he advertised the team, got 15 or more members, and all looked GREAT. Had their first few meetings, ran into a few snafoos with people not wanting to take on shared responsibilities, but, well, ok. Then, the faculty advisor had a health problem that unfortunately caused him to leave school... permanently. Unfortunately, now the science dept. was short-staffed, down one key staff member, and no one was willing/able to step in to take his role as faculty advisor for the team. School rule-- <em>must</em> have a faculty advisor present at <em>all</em> meetings (liability issue or something)-- and, even more importantly, <em>must</em> have a faculty member to arrange/provide transportation to the science olympiad competitions. They couldn't use an "outside" adult to take on this role (liability issues again). So, despite all good intentions, and the willingness of outside people to help, the team died on the vine. School-sanctioned meetings, paid for with school funds, have to be held on school grounds. Can't meet off campus (those darned liability issues again...). Hrrmph. What happened to the good ol' days when you could meet in somebody's basement and mom brought down a batch of brownies?</p>

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<p>fact - schools like HYPSM want students who are passionate about learning</p>

<p>If kids are passionate about something, they will demonstrate it regardless of the limitations of their schools. They will find a mentor, sneak into classes they are not allowed to register for, take things apart in their basement, devour the public library, offer to sweep floors in a lab so they can hang out, mow lawns to raise the money to spend the summer at a math camp, make a working phone out of paper clips, whatever. </p>

<p>fact - taking the most challenging courses you can, which might mean AP, is one sign of passion. It is not the only way, and it is not sufficient by itself.</p>

<p>Even if we say that ALL kids accepted to HYPSM have taken the most challenging courses, that does NOT mean that taking the most challenging courses will, by itself, get you accepted to HYPSM. That's a fallacy of reasoning, like "all cows have 4 legs. My dog has 4 legs, therefore my dog is a cow."</p>

<p>For kids who think that exercises like the above sound like "work", trying to force themselves to do them anyway to look good to colleges is stressful. If they have the misfortune to get into a college that assumes they love whatever it is that the college is about, when they don't love it at all, that has the potential to be even more stressful. The answer to this is not to force some limitations on what the driven kids can disclose to colleges, it is to accept that colleges for driven kids may not be a good match for less-driven kids, no matter how smart the kid might be or how much the parents want to brag about having a child at HYPSM.</p>

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<p>
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I wish the many good suggestions you make were easy to implement. However, in practicality, there are unfortunately often many roadblocks

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<p>I agree that there can be a lot of bureaucratic roadblocks. </p>

<p>One possibility to avoid roadblocks is to create an entity that exists entirely outside the jurisdiction of the school. </p>

<p>That allows for a bigger pool of members (since the members of the group can come from more than one school), so it may be easier to get critical mass to do whatever it is that one wants to do.</p>

<p>And if the activity is not officially a school-sponsored activity, the school can't insist on a faculty advisor.</p>

<p>Homeschoolers put together teams, musical groups, plays, etc. all the time--typically on a shoestring, without the benefit of access to school meeting rooms or paid advisors/coaches.</p>

<p>It does take some resourcefulness and outside-the-box thinking, but it can be done. It also requires some diplomacy, some polite "not-taking-no-for-an-answer," some "Plan A didn't work, let's try Plan B," but it can be done.</p>

<p>I agree that there are bureaucratic roadblocks at some schools. It's not unreasonable for schools to insist on faculty advisors if school facilities are being used and teachers may be overbooked and overburdened with other duties and/or the funds may not be there to pay advisor stipends and transportation to distant competitions.</p>

<p>But if a group of students is willing to think outside the box, creatively, resourcefully, and flexibly, they may be able to come up with an alternative way to pursue their passionate interest together without an excessive amount of redtape and bureaucracy.</p>

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What happened to the good ol' days when you could meet in somebody's basement and mom brought down a batch of brownies?

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<p>No reason students can't still do that. Obviously, most people don't have a science lab in their basement, but kids could certainly do a lot of worthwhile stuff in the basement--bands, creative writing groups, artistic collaborations, play rehearsals, robot building, mock trial preparation, etc. (And, as for the money for expenses for things like robot parts, there's always carwashes, bake sales, yard work, soliciting local businesses for sponsorships, babysitting, etc.)</p>

<p>If the group isn't using school facilities or the school's name, I dont see how the school can prohibit students from pursuing their interests outside of school.</p>

<p>If the kids really want to take ownership, really want to create a new activity to pursue their own passion (and not the school's agenda), it may well be easier--and a lot less red tape--just to move the whole activity outside the umbrella of the school.</p>

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<p>I totally agree with Wisteria. We have some local kids interested in math competitions who cannot get support from their schools because of similar bureaucratic issues. They go anyway and just compete as individuals, or make up a team name. Or they get a minister or scout leader or somesuch to administer a competitive math exam to a group after school.</p>

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<p>We are going to hijack this thread if we continue this discussion. Suffice it to say there are ways of doing lots of things, but it really depends on the communitiy in which you live as to whether it is practical or not. My s's school is 30 miles away, and the kids attending live in a very large radius around the school- getting together after school or on the weekends is a challenge. In a smaller community the suggestions Wisteria or texas make might be practical. In their school, it simply isn't. Suffice it to say there were many other passions that were pursued. This was just one of many. </p>

<p>Back to topic. I fully agree with Marite and xiggi. I fear we are giving mixed messages to our kids. Find balance in your life-- be happy, be healthy, apply to whichever school best fits you. But, if your dream schools happen to inclued HYPS, be sure to fit in those 6+ AP's, the extracurriculars, pursue the passions, those 897 teams, clubs and scholarships, star in the school play, perfect cold fusion, write that second and third novel, and hold an audience with the pope. And don't forget to take your vitamins.</p>

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<p>My junior will graduate with 9 or 10 AP's. This is not to game the system. He knows there are easier ways to pad his resume with other things. He knows what it will take to get into some of the top schools, but he refuses to do things solely for that reason. These are the classes he wants and needs to take. </p>

<p>He decided not to take any classes at the local college as his after-school hours are for EC's and goofing off. He does science and math stuff and competitions, but is more interested in having fun with it and being with his teammates than in winning. He enjoys attending challenging academic summer programs to take classes his HS doesn't offer, but mostly to be around the other kids. He's passionate about science/engineering but on his own terms and in ways that may not translate well in the admissions pool, but that's okay with him. </p>

<p>He could graduate early and head off to college at 16. I think academically he'd do well, but he knows he's not ready for college AND he likes high school. He'll just keep on doing what he wants to do and taking AP's because he likes the classes. I couldn't force this kid to do anything even if I was so inclined. </p>

<p>As someone else said, not everyone taking multiple AP's is doing so for an edge or under pressure to "look good." Some kids are just weird! (I'd do a smiley face but I never learned how.)</p>