"Whoever has the most APs wins"

Parent Cafe
81

<p>(Continuing with the minor thread-jack for a moment...)
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What happened to the good ol' days when you could meet in somebody's basement and mom brought down a batch of brownies?

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No reason students can't still do that. Obviously, most people don't have a science lab in their basement, but kids could certainly do a lot of worthwhile stuff in the basement--bands, creative writing groups, artistic collaborations, play rehearsals, robot building, mock trial preparation, etc. (And, as for the money for expenses for things like robot parts, there's always carwashes, bake sales, yard work, soliciting local businesses for sponsorships, babysitting, etc.)

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That's exactly how my son and five friends started what became their school's robotics team (except I brought out pasta and chips rather than brownies :) ). There is an annual design-build competition at The Tech Museum of Innovation here, and the six of them decided to come up with a device to enter one year. They designed it at the dining room table in one boy's house, built it in our garage and driveway, whipped up a design notebook and slideshow about it, toted it in someone's pickup truck to the Museum, and won the grand prize at the competition. It was one of the least fancy, most basic, and most reliable devices entered. They were all from the same school class and noted that on their entry, but it was not a school-sponsored activity. The next fall, they lobbied the school to let them start a robotics team. Their dedication, enthusiasm, and success on their own persuaded the school to let them start something, with their own fund-raising, and within a year they were winning awards at a FIRST Robotics regional. The team is now in its fifth year, and people act as if it's ALWAYS been an available EC activity. It does still happen "covertly" like that sometimes. :)</p>

<p>(End of thread-jack.)</p>

82

<p>I am going to throw IB options into the dilemma here...</p>

<p>I think my sons did well with college admissions in that both are at schools that appear to suit them very well and at which they are happy. One is at an Ivy, but that is really irrelevant to my discussion- both are at rigorous schools with stimulating professors and classmates... With that in mind, I have reflected often on what they did or did not do in terms of the "formulae" that most people would use- </p>

<p>The best choice my kids made in HS was to NOT do the full IB diploma that our school pushes for top students. Not only were they(and others planning US college admissions who have made this choice) not disadvantaged in the college admissions process (I think at our school at least the chief advantage for full IB is the weighting of grades in a greater percentage of classes), they were able to do things THEY wanted to do, not because some person arbitrarily decided in Belgium that X or Y or Z constitutes a 'better program.' The did community service because they wanted to, not because they had to. They took classes like Music Theory and Electronic Music which fed their passions (as well as taking Physics, and Calculus and all the rest)...and, perhaps most importantly, they had the English teacher of the century twice in HS!! They also had time to do really cool EC's which they explored in diverse situations to a high level of skill. They had time for this in part because they did not do a extended essay for the IB diploma- only one element of the full IB program that I/we felt did not suit them well at this time. </p>

<p>They covered their bases by taking 4(at least) years of the 5 core classes- because they wanted to, because they did well enough in them to continue on, because the wanted the challenge of higher level classes (IB or AP) accross the board. Each 'sat' about 7 or 8 exams, a combination of AP, IB Higher and IB standard. There was value in test preparation- consolidation of learning, challenging oneself to push to a higher level- that went beyond the scores they would get or how those scores would translate into their college admissions or programs. Each did well on their exams which was an added bonus. </p>

<p>Coming from our school at least, there is no quantifiable advantage (except as noted above) of full IB over AP or a mixture of the two. The last few rounds of admissions have been blind to the distinctions (perhaps to the dismay of our counseling staff, though I am not sure anyone is really that reflective- IB diploma it is just a party line here). </p>

<p>The "best preparation for college admissions" loses out in significance to the "best preparation for being a complete person" when it comes to the ultimate decisions in elite college admissions- at least in my book. All the grinding away at meaningless stuff (meaningless to the student) is reflected in a disgenuineness and dreariness of person- and I believe this is how, ultimately, schools like MIT(used as an example only)- which could happily take a very high % of their applicants, try to decide. </p>

<p>In trying to figure out why the prescribed 'formula' doesn't always work, perhaps it is useful to consider-- there really isn't a formula, there are really only guidelines. The IB person in Belgium doesn't know my kids, why would I guess they know what is best for them? The only question worth asking is who is this child and what is best for this child...every single step of the way.</p>

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<p>
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The only question worth asking is who is this child and what is best for this child...every single step of the way.

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</p>

<p>OMG, it's right back to "trust your baby." ;) I used to know this!!! i just forgot!</p>

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<p>At the highly selective colleges I have looked into, IB is as least the equal of the AP program, perhaps even a tad more prestigious. Whereas one needs 4 APs (scores of 5) to receive Advanced Standing at Harvard, only 3 IBs (scores of 7) need to be presented. There is a well founded assumption that IB students can write--something not to be assumed of AP students.</p>

<p>There really is no point to piling up APs (or IBs) for most selective colleges. When one thinks of it, taking AP-pysch or Art History does not help demonstrate a passion for history or math. A student ought to take the most challenging courses in his or her area of interest. For MIT, that would be math/science/comp sci. So it makes sense that the typical successful MIT applicant would have "only" 5-6 APs (BC-Calc; Bio; Chem; Physics C; Comp Sci AB; plus perhaps AP-English or AP-USH because such a course would pretty much be expected of high-achieving students). Interest and passion would need to be demonstrated outside of class, either through academic year ECs or summer programs and through recs and essays. My S, btw, took 6 APs. But the rest of his record spoke to the fact that, as one of his teachers put it, "he lives and breathes math and science."</p>

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<p>My daughter is in the full IB diploma program at a magnet school. She still finds plenty of time for ECs and is very socially active (her parents think over-active). Recently, she mentioned to me one of her friends who graduated last year was able to enter one of the State U's (not the flagship) with Junior standing. "Isn't that great dad? She said I would be able to do at least that since my grades are even better than hers". My reply: "So what are you going to do if you finish college in a year and a half?" I think she got the point.</p>

86

<p>
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So it makes sense that the typical successful MIT applicant would have "only" 5-6 APs (BC-Calc; Bio; Chem; Physics C; Comp Sci AB;

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</p>

<p>That would be pretty much impossible in our HS. We don't offer BC, plus you can't take an AP science until you've done the intro version of each subject. Maybe 1 or 2 kids graduate with 2 AP sciences, never heard of three. But every year or two we send a student to MIT. We do have a fabulous Comp Sci program, though.</p>

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<p>Garland:</p>

<p>"typical" allows for exceptions :) Obviously, if a school does not offer BC, it's harder (though not impossible) to do BC. Our high school does not offer Comp Sci, yet we send several students per year to MIT who are interested in comp sci or electrical engineering. Students also have to take intro to the AP version of science courses. I'm not sure how it's done, but a number do manage to take all three APs. Still I doubt that all MIT admits have 5-6 APs. Some must have fewer. The point, though, is that their achievements and passion can be demonstrated in different ways than APs. And often, that is not something we can learn from looking at hard stats such as SATs/ACT and number of APs.</p>

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<p>I was not so much meaning to contradict as wanting to show others that even the more limited list you suggest is not necessary if the hs program mitigates against it.</p>

<p>I definitely do agree with your larger point.</p>

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<p>The "best preparation for college admissions" loses out in significance to the "best preparation for being a complete person" when it comes to the ultimate decisions in elite college admissions>></p>

<p>Robyrm: This line is terrific. And, not just for college admissions. For life.</p>

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<p>jym626 - not Science Olympiad, but would you son be interested in a math or CS competition that he could do on his own (no school support, no teammates needed)? Here are two:
<a href="http://www.usaco.org%5B/url%5D"&gt;www.usaco.org&lt;/a>
<a href="http://www.artofproblemsolvibg.com%5B/url%5D"&gt;www.artofproblemsolvibg.com&lt;/a> (select "USAMTS")</p>

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<p>Speaking as a college freshman who took fifteen AP exams in high school, it's far from the most important part of one's application short of being named a State AP Scholar or winning the Siemens AP Scholarship. </p>

<p>Typically, 5-7 tests are enough for most colleges.</p>

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<p>texas-
Thanks for the suggestions, but I was relating the story of my older s, who is now a college soph. While the science olympiad thing ultimately fell through, he was on the computer team, the math team (they used the Art of Problem Solving Books), was the highest scorer on the AIM (I forget which year), won awards for his community service that he did for 6 yrs, is an eagle scout, had his own succesful business, etc etc etc. He had many passions; the Science olympiad was but one. I was using his situation as an example that it is often a lot harder (though not impossible) to get things going outside of the school structure than was suggested (especially when the students are so spread out in the metropolitan area), and reiterating how different things are compared to when we were young. Gee, when my h. went through boy scout leadership training, most of it was spent on risk management-- how not to get sued for this and that. My how times have changed.</p>

<p>Now, as for s. # 2, his "passions" are in a different direction.... anyone know a good school for a bright kid who would like to major in paintball, x-box live, Texas hold 'em and billiards? Availability of snowboarding would be a plus.</p>

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<p>Maybe RPI?</p>

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<p>Thanks ohiomom! I'll be sure to add it to his list! But he's not a big tecchie (prefers business/finance), and I forgot one caveat-- I threw on the snowboarding, as it is one of his favorites. But, in the college discussion he drew a line across the map and said "warm weather". I guess the snowboarding will have to be reserved for winter or spring break. That, or he will push to go to school in California, Nevada or New Mexico, where he can get the best of both. Hey, maybe he'll be considered because he is an out-of state'er! Every little bit helps!</p>

95

<p>
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Still I doubt that all MIT admits have 5-6 APs. Some must have fewer.

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</p>

<p><em>Raises hand</em> Me! I only took 3 APs in high school -- English, Govt, and US History. I guess maybe 4 if you count post-secondary calc.</p>

<p>My boyfriend chimes in that he took four -- physics, chemistry, calc BC, and English.</p>

96

<p>Mollie:</p>

<p>Great to hear from you! How did you end up at MIT with these kinds of APs? (not why MIT admitted you but why you chose MIT, rather). A very interesting profile.</p>

97

<p>Oh, I'm a total biology nerd -- I was an absolutely voracious outside reader, so based on my reading I knew in 10th grade that I wanted to major in biology and probably go to grad school and do research (which is what I'm trying to do now -- I'm a senior, so I'm getting grad school apps together, eek). I was unable to take AP bio due to a scheduling conflict between that and show choir. (I cried.)</p>

<p>So basically there were two things that made me apply to MIT: I loved the math/science focus, even if I couldn't get much of that at my high school... and an ex-boyfriend of mine had applied and been rejected, and I wanted to see if I could get in when he didn't. :) Hee.</p>

98

<p>Ah, this makes sense. For the sake of students and their families, would you be willing to explain whether you were involved in bio research outside school since you did not take AP-Bio? How you demonstrated interest or passion? As for the ex-boyfriend, yay! Good for you.</p>

99

<p>"Now, as for s. # 2, his "passions" are in a different direction.... anyone know a good school for a bright kid who would like to major in paintball, x-box live, Texas hold 'em and billiards? Availability of snowboarding would be a plus."</p>

<p>Looks like he is made for one of the Claremont schools. :)</p>

<p>"CMS also has an intramural program, competing in inner tube water polo, swimming, paintball, tennis, golf, ultimate Frisbee, basketball, flag football, soccer, and softball."</p>

100

<p>I hadn't done any research -- I was heavily involved in performing arts extracurriculars at my high school (one of the best programs in the state for band, choir, and theater), so I wouldn't have had time to do research even if I had been savvy enough to seek out opportunities.</p>

<p>As for showing I was interested in science, I believe I sent a list of books I had read outside class (mostly popular science books) as a supplement to my application... I couldn't take AP Bio, but by God, I could exhaust the entire science section of the Columbus Metropolitan Library!</p>

<p>I actually think my extensive extracurricular schedule was key to getting into MIT, since my school wasn't really any great shakes academically.</p>

<p>(If anybody's interested -- or just bored! -- I wrote up a longer version of my story for my MIT</a> admissions blog...)</p>