<p>Dstark, I thought that would be pretty clear. Either we separate and redefine the PA with something that is more than the all-encompassing and utterly nebulous garbage it is today, or we ... drop it.</p>
<p>And to answer your questions, the current PA does not contribute anything positive. It simply serves exactly as Morse intends it to serve: to prop up a few schools via intangibles. </p>
<p>The other parts of the rankings are not beyond criticisms.</p>
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Wouldn't you be more likely to judge Wellseley positively if you knew they were going to find out how you ranked the school?
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<p>That, or realizing that the "world" out there would not look kindly on a sea of 5.00 given without any discrimination to all your friends, or to obvious lower scores to your foes.</p>
<p>Doing misdeeds behind the curtains is easier when there is no fear of transparency.</p>
<p>"It seems that U.S News does plenty to keep the playing field level, but that is NOT by "screwing" the public universities. According to Morse's own admission, the opposite is true: he is using intangibles to propr up the public schools. This might be a matter of personal opinion, but I don't think there a single public university that "deserves" to be ranked higher than it is currently by US News, and especially not Cal."</p>
<p>Ok, and Xiggi, you stated that Berkeley should be ranked no higher than it is. Can you compare Penn to Berkeley and tell me why a person will get a better education at Penn than Berkeley?</p>
<p>"Doing misdeeds behind the curtains is easier when there is no fear of transparency."</p>
<p>It's tough either way, publicly or privately, isn't it?</p>
<p>How many scores of 5 are too many? Too few?</p>
<p>Dstark, you can find the answer to your question in many places. With that you go ahead and form your own opinion. That is what Alexandre does and that is what I do. We end up disagreeing and that is fine. </p>
<p>There is no need to play the Berkeley versus [fill the higher ranked school] game.</p>
<p>Xiggi, the other criteria of the USNWR are more insidious than the PA. At least the PA does not claim to be fact. It is an opinion. The USNWR claims that the other criteria are "objective". Of course, the fact that none of the data is checked, examined or standardized is completely irrelevant. Win at all cost I suppose.</p>
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There is no need to play the Berkeley versus [fill the higher ranked school] game.
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<p>Perhaps. But we SHOULD play the Michigan/Cornell versus [any school] game for Alexandre's sake. :D</p>
<p>^^ or Michigan vs. Cornell. Make Alexandre's head 'splode. :p</p>
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Xiggi, the other criteria of the USNWR are more insidious than the PA. At least the PA does not claim to be fact. It is an opinion. The USNWR claims that the other criteria are "objective". Of course, the fact that none of the data is checked, examined or standardized is completely irrelevant. Win at all cost I suppose.
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<p>While I agree that US News interpretation of the data is not beyond criticism, a lot of the data can be cross-checked. I do not beleve that schools are deliberately filling the USNews survey differently from the other reports such as the CDS or IPEDS, to name only a few. This can be verified by checking the websites of the schools that show tremendous respect to their prospective students by making all their reports public and EASILY accessible. Other schools still prefer to hide the simplest CDS from prying eyes ... draw your own conclusions. </p>
<p>Although the US News allows schools such as Middlebury to play games with their SAT scores or with the creative reporting of the winter admissions, it remains that most of the date does show up somewhere else and could have a semblance of verification. </p>
<p>On the other hand, the PA does not have any meaningful rules. Respondents can interpret the questions as they feel warranted, include elements that have nothing to do with undergraduate education, or simply use that part of the survey to play games with friends and foes. </p>
<p>This will not stop until the possible public embarassment brings this out-of-control practice to a halt, and helps getting a Peer Assessment void of many scores that defy common sense and acceptability.</p>
<p>PA is an opinion poll...sorry you guys whine and disagree with majority opinion.</p>
<p>^^ majority opinion? that's a laugh. PA has a very low response yield.</p>
<p>^ 51% response rate on a detailed survey is pretty good. Over 4,000 surveys were sent, so a 51% response rate represents the opinion of over 2,000 respondents. </p>
<p>Show me another survey on academics that includes more respondents.</p>
<p>60% of those eligible to vote voted in the 2004 presidential election. I'd say 51% is pretty damn good.</p>
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So before you get caught up in this year's US News-induced feeding frenzy, keep in mind those sensible, pragmatic, no-nonsense Nebraskans.
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<p>Uh, I think I'll pass on both. US News rankings are stupid, but keeping "no-nonsense Nebraskans" in mind is just as, if not more, idiotic.</p>
<p>PA is the best measure we got. PA surveys are based on the catergories developed by the Carnegie Foundation for the Advancement of Teaching in 2006.</p>
<p>Show me better data than catergories developed by the Carnegie Institute and I'll be damned. :-)</p>
<p>^^ Hahaha. More like Provosts and Presidents who oversee multi billion dollar corporations, thousands of pHD professors and faculty members, and thousands more bright minded and intelligent students. Presidents that initiate successful multi billion dollar fundraising campaigns and make split life/death managerial decisions that could affect the fate of a university as a whole....with a bachelor, masters, phD, and MD from a prestigious college to boot.....vs. a 18 year old male person who is still a tiny bit too young to know everything in life. LMFAO.</p>
<p>How about a survey that doesn't only include the opinions of 2,000 aged college provosts who know very little about the quality of the education at their own institution, let alone schools from other parts of the world?</p>
<p>How is Richard Levin, Gilpin Faust or Shirley Tilghman anymore knowledgeable about the comparative "reputation" of American colleges than other posters here like Alexandre, Xiggi, Hawkette, etc.?</p>
<p>Bacchanalia,
I hope you’re kidding. Count me as one poster who readily acknowledges that PA voters have a lot of knowledge about colleges and unquestionably more than me or nearly any other CC poster when it comes to their circle of colleges (or at least, gawd, I hope so!). </p>
<p>My main complaint with the PA scoring is how and how far those academics are actually applying their knowledge. There is no standard of judgment and different things and different values and different experiences and prejudices are being applied in every vote.</p>
<p>A second major complaint with the voting is that the subjective power rests solely in the hands of the academics. I feel very strongly that most students care more about how their college is seen in the real world as that is where the vast majority of them are heading. If you want subjective opinion included in rankings, then let’s do it transparently (publicly) and involve a broader and more student-relevant cross-section of perspectives. </p>
<p>Third, the undergraduate academic experience is highly impacted by the student’s classroom experience (good or bad). I would think that a desire for a good classroom experience is universal, regardless of the size of the university that one attends. If you don’t value the quality of what is delivered from faculty to the student in (and sometimes outside of) the classroom, then we’ll never agree. </p>
<p>I think we have to answer the question-whose side are you on? If you’re on the student’s side, the answers are obvious as are the multiple problems with the PA scoring. But right now the PA system (not to mention tenure at most research universities) is wired to support and reinforce the institution and a faculty that can be indifferent to student interests. Frankly, the fact that the PA system is used shows just how insulated and oligopolistic academia is and how different it is from the real world.</p>
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Frankly, the fact that the PA system is used shows just how insulated and oligopolistic academia is and how different it is from the real world.
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<p>The decision to survey academics was made by US News, which is not a part of academe. The decision to include those survey results in the ranking, and to set the weight at 25%, was also made by USNews. </p>
<p>Academia may be all of the negative things you say it is, BUT the fact that USNews uses the PA is not evidence of it -- because that decision lies with Bob Morse & Company. You can blame academia for the way its members appear to rate each other, BUT you need to stop blaming it for the role that PA plays in the USN&WR ranking.</p>
<p>hoedown,
I don't believe that the elite colleges are quite as blameless as you. There are some in academia who agree with the criticisms of the PA voting and have lobbied hard to change or eliminate it. Notably, few (none?) of those colleges who are making noise and threatening to take some type of action would be considered in the elite college category. </p>
<p>The elite/research colleges are greatest beneficiaries of the perpetuation of the USNWR PA voting. Would you expect them to act in a manner that would damage their institutional interests? Neither would I. </p>
<p>The best (and IMO most reasonable) result is what xiggi has argued for on countless occasions. Via transparent voting, create a separate ranking for PA that will allow those institutions (and students) with this interest to have this as their guide/brag sheet.</p>