Who's Better Off?

Applying to College
1

<p>Who is better off:
1) the public school valedictorian or salutatorian (with a 4.0+ gpa)
2) the top Andover/Exeter/Deerfield prep school graduate with a decent gpa (with a 5.0/6.0 scale gpa)</p>

<p>As a student attending one of these top prep schools, I find it so frustrating that prep school admissions to the Ivies keep going down. You truly do not understand how hard prep school students work unless you -are- one of them, and I do not want to sound rude or judgemental but from what I've seen it is MUCH easier to get a 4.0 at a public school than to work through 4 years of boarding school and come out with a 5.0/6.0</p>

<p>But the Ivies seem to ignore this, and keep accepting less and less of the A/E/D grads... why?! why why why?! Would I be better off having an easy life at home and rocking a 4.0 at public school??!</p>

2

<p>The truth is that the student who makes the most of their opportunities will do best in life. Whether that is small country high school or Andover.</p>

<p>You can't come up with a perfect strategy to guarantee admissions to HYPS -- it just doesn't work that way.</p>

<p>I think you are a victim of too much worrying about college acceptances and too much time reading CC. You are going to be starting sophomore year at Andover next year -- it is a fantastic school with numerous opportunities that many envy. Take advantage of the opportunities you have been given, work hard in class and study and then see where you are. </p>

<p>You know the general requirements for getting into a top school: rigor of curriculum, class rank, test scores, GPA, essays, teacher recs & ECs. </p>

<p>As far as it being easier to get a 4.0 at a public school -- I am sure there are many out there where it is easier, some with up to 30-35 "valedictorians" but I can guarantee you that those 30-35 kids are going to HYPS. It is the individual and what they make of themselves that gets them into a top school,</p>

<p>As far as whether you would be better off at your local public -- if the ONLY reason you are attending Andover is to get into an Ivy, then I would say you would be better at home. Andover is a lot of work and effort and the point is learning and networking and making something out of yourself -- not just an ivy acceptance.</p>

3

<p>I knew from the beginning that Andover was hardly a gateway to the Ivies, but I'm just frustrated because I work -so hard- and I don't want to end up going to a 2nd tier college and watching those who had it easier than me end up in the Ivies because they chose to stay home for school.</p>

4

<p>So those in public schools can't possibly be working as hard as you?</p>

<p>It seems a tad bit pretentious to assume that you are the better student simply because you attend a private school.
Most people do not "choose" to attend a "lesser" school.</p>

5

<p>As a student at a public school, I find your judgments on this subject a tad bit insulting (though I can see where you're coming from... don't take my being insulted personally). I mean... you have no idea how hard some of us work either. Sure, it's probably easier to some extent, but should we be penalized because a) our county doesn't HAVE magnet schools and b) our parents don't have the money to send us to your elite Ivy preps? I spend ALL of my time doing schoolwork/ECs, and my test scores (both SAT and ACT with little prep) show that I'm a smart kid. I think colleges are starting to get rid of the elitist attitude that the kids going to A/E/D are the only smart ones out there and are beginning to take the top students from public schools as well. Of course, my humble little public school isn't going to be sending 30+ kids to Ivies; we're lucky if we get 7 in a class of 300. But the 7 who go have worked just as hard and deserve it just as much as a student from A/E/D does, I'm sure.</p>

6

<p>prostudent: Would the 70% of Andover's graduating seniors be qualified for an Ivy? I feel safe to say yes. But the fact is that the Ivies aren't a meritiocracy. The very things that others admire about them is actually fueled by their ability to shape incoming freshman classes and to cherry pick amongst the best (in their definition) applicants. </p>

<p>I would posit that probably 100% of Andover's graduating class will go to a school that will challenge them enormously, regardless of its so-called "prestige factor".</p>

<p>Fact for you. One percent of the human population ever attends college. And you happen to be attending one of the absolute best preparatory schools in America. Look at what you have and not at what you might not have.</p>

<p>Good luck and enjoy your time at A. (Lots of my buddies were E graduates though! LOL)</p>

7

<p>The biggest problem with Andover type schools is you're dealing with so many legacies that there are vew ivy admits among the unhooked who are not truly exceptional. The kids going to top preps are more likely to be ivy legacies than ever because they are of the age where they were often produced by TWO ivy going parents. A few years ago it would just have been a father.</p>

8

<p>People say that colleges want you to make the best of your opportunities. However, colleges don't always know what opportunities you were given. For example, your parents might offer to send you to a BS, but you choose to go to the local high school instead because you know you can excel there. It's a smart choice because you'll have a much easier time at a regular HS. But you might have to compensate for your relatively unimpressive degree by having great extracurriculars. On the other hand, graduating from Andover is in and of itself a great accomplishment. You can probably afford to have less ECs if you go to HS at Andover (someone correct me if I'm wrong on this).</p>

9

<p>
[quote]
prostudent: Would the 70% of Andover's graduating seniors be qualified for an Ivy? I feel safe to say yes.

[/quote]

70% of public school valedictorians (to use the OP's comparison) are probably also qualified to go to Ivies. Lots of students are good enough to go to an Ivy, but there simply isn't enough space for all of them. Thankfully (in my opinion), the Ivies don't simply fill their classes with prep school grads, but actually have a diversity of the best students in the country.

[quote]
But the fact is that the Ivies aren't a meritiocracy. The very things that others admire about them is actually fueled by their ability to shape incoming freshman classes and to cherry pick amongst the best (in their definition) applicants.

[/quote]

To imply that not taking 70% of Andover grads is due to the Ivies not being meritocracies is frankly insulting. I see no reason to believe that Andover grads at the 50th percentile of their class are any better than the non-Andover grads admitted in their place. In fact, the elite prep school grads I know at college do no better on average than the students from any other school.

[quote]
I do not want to sound rude or judgemental but from what I've seen it is MUCH easier to get a 4.0 at a public school than to work through 4 years of boarding school and come out with a 5.0/6.0

[/quote]

Aside from using your fancy prep school education to learn to spell judgmental (I hate doing this, but your arrogant elitism really necessitated it), have you ever considered that getting a 4.0 at a public school is hardly enough to get one into an Ivy? Someone with perfect grades and high SATs from Andover is virtually guaranteed admission to HYPSM. The same is not true for a public school valedictorian with 4.0+ GPA and high SATs. Students at the top prep schools are basically the only people who can get into an Ivy on the basis of grades and scores alone, the fact that substantially less than perfect grades from Andover isn't enough to be admitted does not mean that Andover grads are being treated unfairly. An Andover grad in the top half of his or her graduating class with the kind of ECs that are necessary for a public school grad to be accepted to an Ivy would probably also be accepted.</p>

10

<p>^Wgat you're missing is that those fancy prep schools, the top ones, offer educations no public school can touch. Some have endowments higher than some ivies. 70% of public HS vals would not be ivy material. There are good and great publics, but the average ones are a joke next to a good prep school.</p>

<p>It's also not true that prep school kids don't have an advantage. The ivies have a way higher percentage of private school graduates than exist in nature! Way heigher! This is because of the power of legacy and money.</p>

11

<p>Where on earth is everyone getting this 70% trend?</p>

<p>It's now been mentioned that 70% of HS vals are qualified for ivy schools, and then the post right below it said that 70% are not (thus only 30 are).</p>

<p>Just please, back up what you say unless you want to sound like you're pulling these stats out of your rear end.</p>

<p>(Just like to note that I'm not implying that anyone is doing such, just prove it).</p>

12

<p>Well 75% of HS vals are rejected by HYPSM. Doesn't mean all were not qualified though. But they don't asume if you went to random HS is South Dakota and took the 5 APs they offer that an ivy is going to be an easy ride for you.</p>

13

<p>Good point on the 75% rejection.</p>

<p>But hasn't Harvard also reported that nearly 80% of applicants are qualified?
With 10% and lower (and lower...) acceptance rates, that means that somewhere around 70% of applicants are rejected even though they are qualified.</p>

<p>This is probably getting rather off topic...</p>

14

<p>
[quote]
Where on earth is everyone getting this 70% trend?</p>

<p>It's now been mentioned that 70% of HS vals are qualified for ivy schools, and then the post right below it said that 70% are not (thus only 30 are).

[/quote]

I used 70% because a previous poster claimed that 70% of Andover grads are good enough to go to Ivies: I certainly don't think it is a scientific claim. I believe the poster below me did not mean to claim that 70% are unqualified, but rather that fewer than 70% are qualified.</p>

<p>
[quote]
^Wgat you're missing is that those fancy prep schools, the top ones, offer educations no public school can touch. Some have endowments higher than some ivies. 70% of public HS vals would not be ivy material. There are good and great publics, but the average ones are a joke next to a good prep school.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I don't deny that the average public school is far less rigorous than a prep school, but I still maintain that the best single student at a majority of public schools would be able to succeed at an Ivy. Far more students than the number that actually go to an Ivy or Ivy-equivalent could succeed at one. I'm not saying that an average public school valedictorian would be the best qualified candidate for an Ivy, but he or she would certainly be qualified.</p>

15

<p>I think that colleges also realize that in some ways it is easier to acheive at a boarding school--life is entirely set up for the students to be successful. No one has chores at home, jobs outside of school, outside temptations etc. Everyone at boarding school is guaranteed a place on a team/in an EC because participation is required. No one has a problem scheduling in the time for these activities because the school schedules and mandates and makes sure you participate. There is no problem getting to or from ECs; they are right there for you. There are designated study periods/times. There are always tutors available. And you never, ever have trouble getting the classes you need or having a scheduling conflict.</p>

<p>Colleges make allowances for those whose lives aren't so fortunate and programmed for "success."</p>

16

<p>
[quote]
Good point on the 75% rejection.</p>

<p>But hasn't Harvard also reported that nearly 80% of applicants are qualified?
With 10% and lower (and lower...) acceptance rates, that means that somewhere around 70% of applicants are rejected even though they are qualified.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>If true, this would imply that approximately 75% of rejected applicants are qualified, so over 55% of valedictorians are qualified but rejected, which when combined with the 25% who are accepted, would imply that 80% are qualified. Admittedly, the least qualified valedictorians probably don't ever apply, but on the other hand, since valedictorians are far more likely to be admitted than the average applicant, it seems likely that they are, on average, also more likely to be qualified than the average applicant.</p>

17

<p>I think we're starting to circle ourselves.</p>

<p>So, to continue playing devil's advocate and to go against a recent post, I'd just like to note that there is the possibility that boarding school kids have problems with scheduling, as with any school.</p>

<p>Now, that could be entirely false- boarding school kids feel free to object.</p>

18

<p>OK, first of all, I really really REALLY did not mean to insult anyone by saying that it's easier to get a 4.0 at a public school.. it's simply an observation. </p>

<p>Secondly, I am distressed by the thought that those who attend A/E/D are those who can afford it. My family is making endless sacrifices for me to attend A, as well as receiving financial aid. This is what bothers me: those who say that "oh well my family can't afford for me to go to A/E/D, so it's rude of you to even mention your prep school degree when it's not an option for me." Andover and Exeter are NEED BLIND institutions, meaning: if you have the goods, they're going to make it work for you. Many of my friends are on full financial scholarships and the school even gives them extra spending money to help cover flight costs, etc.</p>

<p>Lastly: boysx3, it hurts that you are under the impression that even in "some ways it is easier to achieve at a boarding school." Life is NOT entirely set up for us to be successful. We do not have mommy and daddy cooking dinner for us and tucking us in at night with a kiss on the forehead; and while you may take that for granted you'll realize in a few years when you go off to college what a huge impact that makes. "No one has chores at home, jobs outside of school" Actually, in addition to doing our own laundry and keeping our rooms in order, we have something called "work duty" at A. Work duty is a job you are assigned to do -without pay- simply for the sake of building character and work ethics. We also have "dorm duty" which involves either taking out the trash or vaccuuming or other chore-like tasks.</p>

<p>"Everyone at boarding school is guaranteed a place on a team/in an EC because participation is required." This is also incorrect; NO ONE is guaranteed a place on the team.. if you can't make the team you have to take a non-competitive sport like yoga or dance. Our ECs are just as / if not more competitive because we have the very best fighting for the highest positions of leadership. You are not guaranteed a spot in a club. Participation in ECs is not required, and sports are required simply in placement of an overal PE class.</p>

<p>"No one has a problem scheduling in the time for these activities because the school schedules and mandates and makes sure you participate." boysx3, where are you getting this information about this dream school? We have to manage our own time. Mommy isn't there to drive us to ballet, we have to get ourselves over to the dance studio after class and if we -aren't- there, we are the ones who take full responsibility. The school does not make sure we participate bc they realize it is OUR future and not theirs. The school does not schedule in time for this and that, we have to make time and make sure we do not have conflicting commitments. Study periods are 2 hours long during which you must be either in your dorm room or in a place of study, but the admin isn't going to -force- you to study. Plus, 2 hours in probably enough time for... math homework and starting the first 2 pages of a history paper. Our homework load is generally MUCH heavier than that at a public HS.</p>

<p>"And you never, ever have trouble getting the classes you need or having a scheduling conflict." Yes, yes we do. We have these problems because everyone at our school is as ambitious and hard working as us. Courses are often "high demand" and there is a great chance you won't get into a class. Some courses require an entrance test, such as AP Euro. Scheduling conflicts come up all the time, and you are often forced to sacrifice one class so you can fulfill the high expectations of our diploma requirements.</p>

<p>Next time you want to call yourself "less fortunate" and accuse boarding schools of simply programming their students for success, taking away credit from the actual students' abilities, please check your facts.</p>

19

<p>I don't think that the Ivies or top schools are taking less boarding school kids at all. I think percentage wise the number of kids from top boardig schools who apply and then are accepted is still greater than that of kids from public schools.</p>

<p>This year Choate had 20 kids into Brown after only the ED round. That's not bad at all.</p>

<p>What the OP may be experiencing/observing is that being a medicore/lower achieving kid at one of these schools puts you in a bind. Your admissions officer will see all those kids who excelled in the same enviornment and they will pass you over.</p>

20

<p>If they don't make it in, they obviously were unqualified.</p>

<p>"Secondly, I am distressed by the thought that those who attend A/E/D are those who can afford it. My family is making endless sacrifices for me to attend A, as well as receiving financial aid. This is what bothers me: those who say that "oh well my family can't afford for me to go to A/E/D, so it's rude of you to even mention your prep school degree when it's not an option for me." Andover and Exeter are NEED BLIND institutions, meaning: if you have the goods, they're going to make it work for you. Many of my friends are on full financial scholarships and the school even gives them extra spending money to help cover flight costs, etc.
"</p>

<p>Not everyone is in the situation to make those "sacrifices" like yours is. If you were truly in a bad financial situation, then I can understand, but I highly doubt you were. It's not the same for your parents to send you to an expensive school than it would have been for me and my ghetto living family to be able to send me to a school like that. It truly is, and you have to accept that to be able to understand your "bothers."</p>

<p>And quite honestly, not many people really even know about boarding schools or "popular" private schools. I had never heard of it in my life until I came to this site, and none of my friends have either, or anybody I've ever met for that matter.</p>