Why are so many people desperate to get into a combined program?

Pre-Med & Medical School Multiple Degree Programs
41

<p>
[quote]
Norcalguy, who went to cornell, professed that out of the 1000 original premeds, 150 ended in med school.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>It's more like 300 who end up in med school.</p>

<p>My point being, if 75% of college students change majors (for whatever reason), isn't it conceivable that 75% of premeds would change career paths as well? Unlike, say, pre-law where someone switching in in their junior year wouldn't be at a disadvantage, premed is a 4-year commitment. In order to get the research experience, take the proper courses, study for the MCAT, etc., you essentially have to be premed from freshman year on. So, with premed losing students due to the standard fickleness of college students and with few replacement students, premed is going to have a huge attrition rate. The average GPA at places like Cornell or Harvard is 3.4. That gives you a decent shot at MD schools and an excellent shot at DO schools. I don't think it's academics that's keeping Ivy League-quality students out of med school.</p>

42

<p>I promised you a more detailed post about what I love about Duke, and had forgotten that I had written a very similar post as to why pre-meds should think about it:
<a href="http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/duke-university/147457-pre-med.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/duke-university/147457-pre-med.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>
[quote]
1.) We have access to a** world-class medical center.** It's close and we're actually allowed - and helped! - to do stuff in it. Some schools like Columbia don't have their hospitals nearby, so it's difficult for students to volunteer or do reseach there. Not only is it literally like two minutes from the dorms to the hospital (walking), but Duke has programs explicitly set up (HCIP) to get undergraduates volunteering in the hospital.</p>

<p>2.) Astonishingly wonderful advising systems. We have famous premedical advisors. I've ranted about this a little bit on a thread relating to UCB in the Premed topics forum (Berkeley is a good place to pursue pre-med?) but the bottom line is that advising is both key and really wonderful here. They've earned their reputation as being among the best in the country.</p>

<p>This is reflected in their numbers.</p>

<p>3.) World-class faculty in small classes. Duke's philosophy in hiring faculty is that we want absolutely brilliant faculty on the cutting edge of their fields, and we will put up with almost anything to get them. The one thing we will not put up with, however, is an unwillingness to make teaching their absolute top priority. That means that the faculty we have here love students and will go far out of their way to make sure we learn. This means partly that we learn better, which helps us once we actually get into med school, but it also means that we get better letters of recommendation, which are huge.</p>

<p>This to me is the most important point: Yes, there are schools with similarly or perhaps even more qualified faculty as leaders in their fields. But at what other school do undergraduates have real, worthwhile access to those leaders on a routine basis? Where else will a health economist who is cited repeatedly in every textbook hold multiple review sessions, some of them on Sunday evenings, just to make sure we really learn the stuff? Where else will a world famous chemist respond to freshmen questions via e-mail during his Thanksgiving day? Some schools have wonderful faculty who will do this - but I don't think any of them will top us in the access we have to brilliance.</p>

<p>4.) An encouragement to pursue co-curricular activites. And yes, I did just call them co-curriculars rather than extra-curriculars. Duke understands that we're training young men and women here, not just scholars, and so I've never heard of a student here who had anything short of astonishing extracurriculars. I'm a tour guide, and I make it a habit when I'm on my tours to mention the accomplishments of the various students I run into - I can afford to do this because Duke students are simply astonishing. Friends of mine have discovered new chemical structures, signed up for internships with the bioterrorism department of the government - it seems everybody has something incredible that they view as normal because that's what Duke students do.</p>

<p>We have a department entirely for the purpose of helping students arrange interesting, educational, or service-oriented (but usually all three) summer projects.</p>

<p>This is crucial - medical schools need good qualifications, yes, but they are also looking for people who will make good doctors. People who have shown themselves to be committed to helping others, who can dive into the intellectualism known as research, and who have proven that their interest in health is more than just "hypothetical" are standout candidates.</p>

<p>5.) Warmth. Premeds here - knowing that we will all do well in the process - learn together. You won't hear of us stealing each other's notes or sabotaging projects. We study together. We encourage each other. Frankly speaking, we take care of each other. Duke students are warm, and we will support each other through rough times along the premedical track. Is this a stereotype? Absolutely. Has it proven true for me? Also absolutely.</p>

<p>6.) Location in the research triangle. This is one of the more minor points, but our location amongst the high-powered pharmaceutical companies does make it easier to attract biotechnology-oriented professors, faculty, companies, internships, etc. Duke Medical Center attracts a lot of exciting research for this purpose, and that may impact the premedical experience somewhat.</p>

<p>That doesn't even begin to talk about reputation, courses that prepare you for the MCAT, a pre-professional slant at Duke (which is good for pre-professional students like pre-meds), really world class science buildings like the French Science Building and CIEMAS, a commitment to genomics and science as a future, the interdisciplinary focus of most of our science programs, including medical humanities classes and the excellence of our biomedical engineering... I could go on and on but it's late and I'm getting sleepy.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Will try to write more generally about the university later on.</p>

43

<p>wait but i thought it doesnt really matter where you go to undergrad if you want to go to med school (that whole thread in the "pre-med topics" section)</p>

<p>is it more important to pick an undergrad based on whether its good for pre-meds or whether you like it better than other schools?</p>

44

<p>That thread explicitly says that it does in fact matter. (See: "On whether it matters at all.") What we're arguing is that it is not prestige or grade inflation that matters, but intangibles. Among those, atmosphere and fit are two of the most important.</p>

<p>What the post here explains is that I found Duke to be an excellent place for my growth as a young person: good career advising, a wonderful medical center, emphasis on external activities... in other words, it was a good atmosphere and a good fit. I liked it better than other schools because it was a good place to grow as a future physician.</p>

45

<p>ohh okay that makes muchhh more sense. thank you!</p>

46

<p>Being in a combined program is simply way too good to give it up for anything else, including some "dream" school, that might not be such a "dream" place when you learned more about it by actually attending and living there. Visitations could be misleading in this sense. Good school does not have to be Ivy league, not everybody with superior stats wants to go to Ivy league. The fact that you are accepted to selctive bs/md should tell you that this particular college really wants you, they think that you are a good fit and they going to treat you like royalty. It is a very good postition to be. Never heard of anybody who volunteer to leave such a program.</p>

47

<p>what everyone said is all true, about deciding whether to actually go or not... but theres a question:</p>

<p>does anyone already in one of the programs ever actually regret choosing that school + program over their "dream school"? Plenty of people regret NOT choosing those places when offered the opportunity, but there're hardly any who regret choosing the accelerated programs</p>

48

<p>^ Totally agree. I never heard of anybody who regrets being in bs/md program. Actually, I hear of those who are in combined program who are happy that they gave up their "dream school" for their current school that accepted them into combined program. They feel that their original "dream school" would not fit them as well. Acceptance to the bs/md program pushed them in a right direction.</p>

49

<p>One of our posters here has severe regrets about her BS/DO program (post #16 on this thread); we'll see if she comes by. In any case, it's always hard to "regret" things too much because you never really get to see what it would have been like on the other side of things. Obviously any universal generalization will be incorrect -- but many of the marketing forces that push them to accept the program in the first place will keep them happy with it as well.</p>

50

<p>This was a post that was very helpful for us.From couple of years back.
From the perspective of a physicain!!! Very practical. But there will always be student that would prefer to go the traditional route.</p>

<p>I have read these posts for months. I am a dad whose S is now in the same predicament. Excellent college vs 7 year med program. Fortunately, I am also a physician who had his own experience with med school admissions (although 27 years ago) and has also watched s's and d's of friends go through the pre med mill. Let me try to shed some light on your dilemma.
First... There are many excellent undergraduate institutions that send many of their premeds to medical school. The rates of admissions to medical school are reported during their on campus Q and A sessions and occassionally on their websites. Overall acceptance to medical school is hovering around 50%. This is a grossly overestimated number since it doesn't come close to accounting for those students that get "weeded out" in freshman bio, calculus, or if they get that far, organic chemistry. I know personally 3 very successful lawyers my age that all started college as premeds. I know innumerable friends of my daughter who are now in law school or business school as a result of their failed attempts to do well in pre med at college. These are students that never registered to EVEN APPLY to medical school. They all were excellent students in high school with high expectations and dreams of a career in medicine. These students went to Duke, Emory, Michigan, etc., their life long aspirations and expectations were dashed in less than one year at their "dream" school.
Second... There is this popular misconception that the combined programs won't afford you the same opportunities for residencies as a "better" medical school and that by attending a great and venerable institution like Duke or MITor Princeton, you may be afforded the opportunity if you do well, to attend Harvard, JHU, Wash U or Stanford Medical School. Again, everyone falls prey to the same faulty logic. I think you are all better served to just to buy a lottery ticket and pray. Medical school admissions is a crapshoot. Go to MDapplicants.com and look at the schools individuals are going to. In the end, so many thingsw will impact your eventual decision. I personally passed up a top 3 medical school to attend a school that was near my girlfriend (who is now my wife). I made the right decision and it hasn't effected my ability to have a very successful practice. In the end no matter where you go for med school, the best residencies go to the best students in each class, and that can be done at BU, and GWU as easily as Wash U. As a physician and head of a large subspecialty group, I can tell you that the last thing I look at when I scan a candidates CV is the college and medical school from which they came. I look at their fellowship and go backward from there. If you are at the top of your med school class, you will get the good residency, ditto for fellowship.
Third...Having the ivy league college experience is worth passing up a guaranteed med program. If you ask pre meds at any quality school in the country, they will all tell you that they have a much different experience than everyone else. While everyone is soaking in the culture and intellectual experiences of the diverse, eclectic environment that is called ivy league, the pre meds are studying and stressed out. When my D told me about the premed students taking sleeping bags to the library, I was amazed. If that is going to be your competition for a med school spot, then you will be very embarrassed when you will need to rationalize to yourself why medicine was really not for you, while always knowing that you succumbed to the pressure and the competition and got eliminated from contention like many before you. You will wish you never turned down that guaranteed spot to a good but not great med school.
Fourth....nothing in life is guaranteed. The med school spot is about as close as you can get to a guaranteed MD. No one knows what may happen to you or your family or loved ones in the next four years that may preclude you from realizing your dream of a medical career. The illness of a loved one or even a bad case of mono could be enough to taint a semester's grades. The med school adcoms won't care.
Finally... It all comes down to passion. If your passion is to be a doctor, then to me there is no choice. Others have gone to foreign medical schools, learned foreign languages and waited to reapply year after year to fulfill their dreams of medicine. If a medical career is just a passing fancy of yours or just 'it seems like a good idea for now', then by all means go to the ivy and test the waters. There is no paucity of students who will jump into your spot no matter what hoops they have to jump through to get there.</p>

51

<p>I addressed this post a while back -- I was extremely unhappy with it and felt it exaggerated by a very large margin the competitiveness of the premed process. I'll see if I can find my old response to it somewhere.</p>

52

<p>^That is so well said! </p>

<p>...." many of the marketing forces that push them to accept the program in the first place will keep them happy with it as well" - that is soooo much true.</p>

<p>"One of our posters here has severe regrets about her BS/DO program" - Could it be because it is BS/DO and not BS/MD?</p>

53

<p>
[quote]
1.) I've recently obtained Duke's incoming freshmen numbers, approximately. As it turns out, we have more students applying to medical school each year than actually enter as premeds. So we actually have negative attrition, and our 85% turns out to be a pretty good estimate.</p>

<p>I should have realized this, being a negatively attrited student myself.</p>

<p>2.) "In the end no matter where you go for med school, the best residencies go to the best students in each class, and that can be done at BU, and GWU as easily as Wash U."</p>

<p>This is, of course, a gross oversimplification of the truth, but it is truthful. Obviously the top students at any school will get the medical schools/residencies they desire. As BRM is fond of saying -- and I am fond of quoting -- "Excelling is a panacea." This is fine if you're an excellent student, in the top few handful in your class. But mediocre students -- such as myself -- can often be substantially helped by the resources made available by top-flight programs.</p>

<p>For example, UC Berkeley -- a high-caliber institution -- sends about 13 students to top-ten medical schools each year in a class of 10,000. Duke sends 45 with a student body of 1600. If you're going to be in the top 0.1% of your school, then you can go wherever you like and it's not a problem. But what if you're not that kind of student? What if you're only a top-2% student? Marginal students can be very helped by the advising and curriculum that private schools like Duke can provide.</p>

<p>For the record, by the way, I wasn't even in Duke's top 12% -- or my high school's top 50% -- and I certainly have no complaints.</p>

<p>3.) "the last thing I look at when I scan a candidates CV is the college and medical school from which they came."</p>

<p>This is obviously true, and it continues to prove BRM's point about excelling wherever you go being the most important component. But there is a certain degree of chain-reaction inertia. Can this be overcome by an excellent student? Of course. But, again, what about middling students? It's true that the valedictorian of the University of Texas at Houston will probably do just as well as the valedictorian of UC San Francisco, but the kids in the middle of those two classes will have very different outcomes.</p>

<p>**4.) "When my D told me about the premed students taking sleeping bags to the library"</p>

<p>I certainly never saw this happen at Duke. I won't speak for other schools, but I suspect NCG and PSAS will be here shortly to tell you that they didn't see it at Cornell or Penn either. My father certainly never saw it at MIT.</p>

<p>I don't know what kind of school this physician's daughter goes to. Certainly I don't know anybody who slept at the library. Duke's library isn't even open past 2 AM.**</p>

<p>6.) "I think you are all better served to just to buy a lottery ticket and pray."</p>

<p>The process may seem very random to outsiders, but -- trust me -- it's not. Or, at least, there are ways to minimize the problems associated with that randomness, which is why the advising you'll find at Yale is crucial to the application process. (I'm sure NU's advising is fine, too.) It is nothing like a lottery, and in fact the underlying system makes a great deal of sense once you accomodate some variation in outcomes.</p>

<p>These horror stories are not representative of the premedical process at Ivy League schools and should not be taken seriously.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>And certainly they're not representative of what high-caliber students -- like those admitted to BS/MD's -- would expect.</p>

54

<p>As mentioned there will always be students who would prefer to go the traditional route of 4 year of undergraduate in a school of their choice and med school. Nothing wrong with that. But the hard work needed for maintaining the GPA in the pre-med classes, MCATS, Interview, Research---the uncertainity and stress of acceptance into a med school in the process cannot be and should not be overlooked / minimized. </p>

<p>If a student is around 75- 80 % sure of wanting to be a physician...BS/MD programs are worth considering seriously. If you dont get in such a program..it is not the end of the world. But if you do ...for the undergrad studies atleast you can broaden your horizons by taking classes you otherwise will not ..without much stress.
Because all in all medical school/ profession is a very demanding career and you may not have the chance or the time once you enter this profession. </p>

<p>The competition for these programs no matter which one,is very high...because of limited seats offered.Also very dependent on the individual Medical school's selection criterias. In a fashion one can select the BS/MD programs that will meet some of your personal dream. If you want a great college experience for 4 years with a liberal arts focus, Brown Plme maybe the way to go. If science focus / research based undergrad program is what you want RPI / AMC will be a good choice. For someone looking for accelerated programs PSU will be the one to consider.....so on and so forth.
Geographic location, money are other significant factors for choosing a particular program
Unlike other professions i.e management, Medical school ranking does not play a significant role in getting into prestigious residency programs or jobs.
All medical schools in this country are LCME accredited and usually provide good advising for residency placement based on "good fit"
See below. Also recommendation letters are taken very seriously in seleting the right medical student for a particular residency program does not ,matter which medical school he or she will come from..work ethics, work ethics, work ethics( will you stay up the whole night to care for patients, if a patient comes to the ER at 5 when you are ready to leave will you stay back to help another busy resident) .The ability to work as a team in the ER, OR,on the ICU-- dedication, compassion etc etc. For academic postions, mediacl school ranking may matter...but not for the usual clinical / community focussed residency programs</p>

<p>A Word from the President:
Medical School Rankings: Is There Really a Number One?</p>

<p>Every year at this time, prospective medical school applicants begin to ask the all-important question, "How do I find the best medical school for me?" Often, one of the first places they look for answers is the U.S. News and World Report annual rankings, especially given the widespread press they typically generate.</p>

<p>As a former dean who actively interviewed applicants, I learned that the right fit for aspiring medical students is not about a ranking or number. It is all about the individual fit between a specific student and school.</p>

<p>Just what is wrong with the rankings? The fundamental problem is that they are based on a set of metrics that fail to directly measure the quality of education. In the U.S. News rankings, "reputation" is the most heavily weighted metric. While a variety of factors help determine a school's reputation (such as the number of alumni and the size and location of its home city), many are in no way measures of educational quality.</p>

<p>Other metrics used in the rankings, such as the amount of National Institutes of Health (NIH) research grants awarded and faculty-to-student ratios, seem impressive at first glance, but can be misleading to an applicant. For example, while high levels of NIH funding may signal an institution's commitment to building strong research programs (and may also reflect research opportunities available to students), a strong research orientation could have the unintended consequence of limiting faculty time in the classroom. As for faculty-to-student ratios, there is no guarantee that more faculty appointments directly correlate to the amount of time faculty members actually spend teaching.</p>

<p>Another metric, "student selectivity," is based primarily on MCAT® scores, which measure cognitive abilities. However, attributes such as humanism, compassion, and empathy are also critical to selecting students who will make good doctors, as well as good colleagues. Lastly, the U.S. News rankings list only 50 of the 125 accredited U.S. medical schools. Does this mean unranked schools do not provide a high-quality education? To the contrary; it has been my experience that a superb medical education can be found in some of the less well-known, yet very student-focused schools that might not even appear on the U.S. News list. Given these limitations, it is my sincere hope that medical schools take great care in their promotion of the rankings. While I certainly understand the pride that comes with a high ranking, I am concerned that the rankings as a whole present an important audience—our applicants—with a very limited picture of U.S. medical schools.</p>

<p>So what should medical school applicants do to determine which school is right for them? As a first and critically important step, prospective medical school applicants should understand that accreditation of U.S. and Canadian medical schools granting the M.D. degree is conducted by the Liaison Committee on Medical Education (LCME). LCME accreditation is a rigorous evaluation process that ensures high quality across medical schools. Unlike the rankings, LCME accreditation is a quality assurance process that determines whether a medical school educational program meets established high standards for function, structure, and performance.</p>

55

<p>Some of you guys are against BA/MD programs because they compromise the undergrad experience and bind the studens to medicine.</p>

<p>What if there were a program that allows you to have completely freedom in a relatively good state school? That'd takes care of both objections. (Actually this isn't hypothetical for me) The only downside I see is that students would have to settle for a less academically challenging environment (but then they can enjoy other aspects, without pressure)</p>

<p>What other objections are there against ba/md programs?</p>

56

<p>1 word: GUARANTEE, WHO DOESN'T WANT TO GO TO COLLEGE WITH A RESERVED SEAT IN MED SCHOOL OR ANY OTHER GRAD SCHOOL? </p>

<p>It reduces the stress/anxiety with applying to med schools, not to mention the low acceptances rates, the fierce competition, and opportunities that arise from such a program....</p>

<p>Guarantee is the BIG WORD that everyone is after, and so am I, so go for it if you know about it, have the capacity, dedication, motivation, desire, and work ethic, then go for it and do your best...</p>

<p>Apply to BS/MD and BS/DO because then you get at least one acceptance and I got multiple and also don't worry about the app fee's-they can get expensive, apply to at least 5 direct programs if not more...It's worth it, because otherwise you may end up regretting not applying it.</p>

<p>Key factors to get accepted:
*A solid application with creative essays
*A GREAT ACT/SAT with GREAT GPA/CLASS RANK
*Good medical experiences/leadership roles/volunteering
*Practice the interview and be confident in yourself!</p>

57

<p>i would venture most premeds hate bs/md programs because they didn't apply to them when they could have. And they're jealous =D</p>

58

<p>Most of those in this thread who object to the programs are actually former pre-meds, now in or about to start medical school. The reason is pretty simple: we know what it takes, and 18-year old premeds are overestimating the difficulty of the process.</p>

<p>Re #55: The major objection is: if you didn't want to go to that school anyway, the guarantee is overhyped and shouldn't convince you to go there.</p>

59

<p>one of my major concerns is that some of these program students stop working as hard as a normal premed does thanks to the "guarantee." But seriously, out of your own interest to prepare yourself for medschool, take harder classes instead of just taking easier classes to meet the required GPA.</p>

60

<p>I don't think you are going to find any regret/jealousy from BS/MDers or from med students who made it the traditional way. I do think BS/MDers tend to be less open to other careers and these programs generally select for stubborn/determined high schoolers anyway so not too many will drop out from these programs to pursue other professions. Obviously, the med students who went to the undergrad of their choice and got into the med school of their choice would certainly not regret not getting locked into an undesirable college solely for the sake of a "guarantee."</p>

<p>I do wish people would stop seeing the premed attrition rate (esp. at Ivy League-caliber universities) as a sign of failure. Very few Ivy League premeds lack the intelligence/drive to get into med school, pass the boards, and become licensed MD's whether through US allopathic, osteopathic, or Caribbean schools. I do think you guys are closing yourself off from other careers (which is why I suspect so many people drop out from premed; they realize there ARE other careers out there). Sure, you can take an English course or a history course here and there. But, it's about the mindset. College students are generally pretty open to various careers while I suspect students in combined programs are less open-minded towards other choices.</p>