Why are you guys so involved?

Parents Forum
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<p>Epiphany, </p>

<p>I can’t tell if that comment was directed toward me, but here’s what I think…</p>

<p>Kids are damn perceptive. They figure out real quick whether a parent has ANY confidence in them or not. And by being over-involved or “hovering” parents, they (correctly) assume the parent has zero confidence in the kid making their own decisions. </p>

<p>What cracks me up this day and age (didn’t used to happen as often years ago) is that parents today make every single decision for thier child for 17 years, then wonder why their kids can’t make a decision the day they turn 18. I’m generalizing of course, but you get my drift.</p>

<p>And no, I’m not accusing YOU of this, so don’t feel you have to defend yourself. I just seem to see it almost everywhere I go these days.</p>

<p>I just had a conversation with someone my age this morning about how sheltered kids today are compared to the way we were raised. HUGE difference, and it is the same reason kids today can’t make adult decisions. </p>

<p>When I was 5, I walked myself home from Kindergarten. When I was 8, I was working on houses, helping crawl around underneath them and level and remodel them. When I was 12 I was running electrical lines and working on plumbing. Not to mention all the lead-based paint I scraped by hand, usually in shorts, sometimes without shoes on…</p>

<p>Wake up folks. Kids will only do what we expect of them. If we don’t expect them to be able to make good decisions their entire childhood, then it’s not fair for us to expect it from them when it’s time to go to college.</p>

<p>Sometime in the past 30 years it became in vogue to hover and be overprotective of kids. The media told us we weren’t “good parents” unless we did this. This is the same media that now tells parents that their kids have to be involved in every single sport and extra-curricular activity imaginable. Then came the “self-help” gurus that made millions writing books about how to raise children without spanking them…</p>

<p>Just makes me laugh when I see the same parents have trouble with their teens and adult children after having babied them thier whole lives. </p>

<p>My (single) mother invented tough love. She expected the five of us kids to do our chores and be responsible when all the neighborhood kids were playing outside and whining about not having the latest Atari game… We didn’t even have a television set, much less an Atari game console… And we were expected to work around the house. Not only normal chores, but actual WORK, like painting, remodeling, etc. </p>

<p>There are 28 grandkids on my mother’s side of the family, and of the 28, the five of us are the only ones who graduated college and have successful marriages. And those 23 other grandkids all felt sorry for us when we were growing up. I feel sorry for them now, because their parents bought all the new-age nonsense and gave them every thing they wanted growing up, expecting nothing in return.</p>

<p>I know how some of you will read this and dismiss it, but it’s the way it is…</p>

<p>John.</p>

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<p>Fogfog, don’t go checking his threads and using them against him. Although I do agree that he does have an ax to grind.</p>

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<p>My parents didn’t help me at all with my college application. They weren’t knowledgeable enough about the admissions process. As a result, senior year was hell for me. It was extremely hard finding colleges that would fit me, writing a bajillion essays, asking teachers to do teacher recommendations, filling out all of the applications (and the extra honors forms), studying for the SAT’s (and take them), prepping for interviews, filling out scholarship forms, and submitting all of those FA forms, on top of an all AP courseload and EC’s with absolutely no help at all. I wished my parents could have been “overtly involved” with the process and made my life easier with at least some of the application process.</p>

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<p>Personality styles (parents and kids) have a lot to do with kids developing autonomy/independence. Parents are not with their kids 24/7 and there are lots of situations (school, social activities, teams, clubs, stores, driving, etc) where kids make their own decisions. There is simply no way a parent can make <em>all</em> their kids decisions for them, even if they wanted to.</p>

<p>My younger s is fiercly independent, and has, for as long as I can remember, fought to make his own decisions. His phrase as a toddler was “I dood it myself”. Only recently has he actually let us help him, and taken our advice into consideration. He still makes final decisions himself, and they are ususally pretty good ones. Older son is more open to input, and actively solicits it. He is a very responsible, self sufficient young man, which includes knowing how to do his research and use good sources of information, which includes from his parents.</p>

<p>Sure, there are those who went to the school of hard knocks and walked to and from school barefoot in the snow 2 miles uphill each way, and did well. They should be proud. But there are also those who came from challenged backgrounds who didnt come out so well, and could have benefitted from more stucture, guidance and direction. There is also a lot in between the “had it tough” vs the “totally spoiled/priviledged” upbringing. Overgeneralizations water down the discussion, IMO. </p>

<p>As others have said, they participate in the college selection because they ENJOY it. That is true for me as well. Knowledge is power, IMO, and to assist my kids, participate in their lives (within the limits they set) and provide information for their data collection and ultimate decision-making was my joy and my pleasure.</p>

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<p>My D. has had appreciated my assistance, got accepted to program that I found for her, very happy with it and has asked me to assist her in researching Meidcal Schools. It all started after she went to High School of my choice, while she wanted to go somewhere else. She (college junior) continues pointing out that her HS was the best preparation for college and the best group of close friends that she will always keep in touch, many thanks to me. I have never assisted in application / essays…etc.</p>

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<p>BCMan, good for you. And the irony is that your parents lack of involvement probably made you even more independant. It certainly helped you learn something, and now you have a sense of satisfaction that you did all that by yourself. </p>

<p>Maybe they’re sneaky-good, those parents of yours… ;)</p>

<p>Caring for a child and helping them with everything aren’t necessarily related. Sometimes you let them/make them do it themselves BECAUSE you care about them and their future…</p>

<p>jym626, good post. I just re-read my last one and it sounds like I’m an angry white guy. ha, ha. Not the case at all. Just amazed sometimes that more parents don’t make the connection until it’s too late. But then, none of us were handed instructions when our kids were born either, right?</p>

<p>John.</p>

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<p>

You can’t really get the full picture of what goes on with any family because, as was pointed out, this is the parents forum and we’re all really just conversing with other parents. It’s not necessarily a reflection of what happens between the parents and the kids.</p>

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<p>I agree. Ever notice that when we get one of these threads, the kid confronting the parents almost always asks one pointed question and then disappears after only one or two posts on the thread? A drive-by shot if you will. The parents then tie themselves up in knots for the next two or three weeks defending their choices and arguing with each other. Sounds like a classic ■■■■■ post designed solely to stir up trouble. </p>

<p>We should learn to quit falling for it. Just ignore these questions when they come along.</p>

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<p>I don’t see that leaving a kid to struggle on his own makes him more independent, any more than throwing him off a diving board makes him more able to swim. I found myself bearing much more responsibility than a child should, when I was young, and to this day I often feel the old helplessness and ineptitude. So I made sure my D had plenty of help and support, and she is a very independent, capable person. She might be that way by nature, but I think her sense that she has a solid foundation to build from is a big part of it. I’ve known people who did more for their kids than I would have dreamed of doing, helping write papers, etc…and to my surprise, those kids are thriving. I still wouldn’t do that, but… I really think that one of the most important things a child can have is the knowledge that his/her parents really care about his/her well-being, education, etc. I think kids are helpful to others because their parents have been supportive of them.</p>

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<p>If there’s one thing that’s overrated in American culture, it’s independence. We are interdependent creatures by nature–most of us literally can’t survive alone–and trying to deny that fact leads to all kinds of misery, as well as bad John Wayne movies.</p>

<p>We certainly don’t make every decision for our son, but we are involved in most of his important decisions–i.e., we ask questions, we listen, we offer advice when asked (and sometimes when not asked), we occasionally prohibit some choices, and we pay attention to the results. If this leads to poorer decision making, then how come our son’s decisions are far better, by and large, than the ones I made at his age, as the recipient of the kind of hands-off parenting some here are so fond of?</p>

<p>My parents pretty much let me be, other than setting moral standards and budget limits. After about age 13-14, they were not nearly as involved in my life as we are in our son’s–and I don’t think that helped me at all. I hit adulthood almost entirely unable to take care of myself; I’m still amazed I survived my early twenties. I wish my parents had guided me more, asked me more questions, given me more information, really initiated me into the fine points of adulthood (like handling my finances, for instance).</p>

<p>It’s certainly true that there is some egregious helicoptering going on out there. But I think the general trend for baby-boom parents to be more involved in their kids’ lives than their own parents were in theirs is an overwhelmingly positive one.</p>

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<p>I always like to state what I am trying to say right up front, in this case I totally disagree with limbwalker. I think by his defination, I am a hoovering type of of parent. I made sure my kids went to the right pre-school, in order to get into the right elementary school, and so on. When they were young, I made sure they had piano, violin, ballet lessons. We drove them back and forth instead of letting them fend for themselves because we thought it would be safer. We also delivered and picked them up at different summer camps instead of putting them on a plane by themselves (are they sheltered because of what we did?). When it came to colleges, we talked at length about what D1 would like to do for a career someday and tried to figure out which schools would give her most options. When we traveled I made every reservation and planned out the trip. My kids talk to me about their friends/BF, their highs and lows. In turn, I talk to them about sex, importance of protection and getting regular checkups. Is that hoovering or just parenting? </p>

<p>On the face of it, one may think my D1 would be this spoiled, dependent girl who wouldn’t even know how to get up in the morning by herself. The truth is she has become a mature, independent, confident young lady we have raised her up to be (if I may say so myself). We helped her with the college process, but she is taking control of job search now (she is asking for opinion, but she is not asking us to do it for her). She is savvy enough to contact our family and friends to help her out. She found an online site to find interview questions/answers to a particular industry she is interested in. She has been reading up on companies she is having interviews with Last night before I went to bed, I found a neatly typed up interview schedule for this week by my purse. On it she carefully listed when she had to get up each morning, which train she had to be on, where/when she needed to be. On it, I didn’t see anything about parents driving her here or there. At the end of the whole process, if she is lucky enough to get a few offers, she may ask for our opinion on which one to go with, but she’ll be confident enough to make the right decision.</p>

<p>Did we let D1 make every decision by herself when she turned 18? No. At age 20, is she taking more and more control of her own life? Yes. Am I confident she will be able to look after herself after college? Absolutely. What is more important is I think the way we have brought her up, not only would she be self sufficient, she would have enoug poise to handle any situation - may it be good or bad.</p>

<p>I think kids who are left to grow up by themselves without adult(s) influence (may it be a mentor or a parent) are not better off.</p>

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<p>i totally feel you on that! my parents are not involved with my school work, but when i see parents hovering over their childs work, its so annoying</p>

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<p>I tend to believe OP is a ■■■■■, but even ■■■■■■ post interesting questions, so what’s the harm? :)</p>

<p>I agree with both John and oldfort. I don’t see them as mutually exclusive (I don’t think John was raised w/out parental influence and, in fact, I’d say he had a very strong parental influence). About a year ago, I had a long talk with ds about how his dad and I would be slowly stepping back from day-to-day decision-making about all kinds of things because we wanted to know that he could make big decisions on his own. I told him that when I went to college, my parents were hardly involved at all – they didn’t know my schedule or my grades, didn’t help with my living arrangements (off-campus apt), etc. I told him that he’ll go off to college and I’ll be barely involved in his life at all. His response: “I don’t believe you.” LMAO!!! And why should he when we’d been heavily involved in so many aspects of his life? I’m proud to say that in the past year we’ve taken major steps back and ds has stepped right up.</p>

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<p>^^^^ agree, agree, agree…(even at the risk of feeding a ■■■■■). nightchef, you are so right about the American ideal of independence! And I feel like any young person who would post provocatively on here must be longing for that sense of community with his parents. (I may be totally wrong, just had to say it.)</p>

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<p>OldFort;
You have to understand that there are a LOT of parents who know nothing about the College process-from applications to attending–because they did not go to college! I work in the guidance department of a public high school and we see this a lot! I also speak with a lot of College admission reps and they say that there are a lot of “helicopter parents” especially at the more highly competitive schools. My son graduated college in 2008 and I think back to when he was applying to college and even knowing what I know–I was a little too involved! Especially when it came time to visit the schools and I was more interested in some of them then he was! He finally told me that a certain school would have been great for me but it wasn’t for HIM! He was right and I learned to listen and trust his judgement!</p>

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<p>Oh SO True!!!
We are all way more involved that OUR parents were–and sometimes it’s not good!! If we bring our kids up right, we should be able to let them go and they will (usually) make the right decision. And we have to remember that it may be right for them, but not for us!!</p>

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<p>I agree with you wholeheartedly!! You seem like a good well-adjusted guy and I’m sure your kids are too! Confidence breeds Confidence (or something like that!)</p>

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<p>My parents were the very under-involved type, even though they both had Master’s degrees in education and taught/were in school administration. All my life I wanted to be a dr. I had the stats/work ethic to make it. In the middle of my sr. year, my dad sat me down and said, “Where are you going to college?” (that was the first sentence regarding my college career). His next sentence was, “How are YOU going to pay for it?”</p>

<p>I think the middle of sr. year is a * little* late to tell one’s child they are paying their own way entirely!! I went into panic mode, gave up on becoming a dr., and found the best paying career that required only a 4 year degree-accounting. I vowed then to NEVER put my child through those type of choices. My parents never moved me to college, never came to parents weekend in the fall, never asked about grades, nada. I would have given a lot to have parents who were involved in the process–and that was in the dark ages 27 years ago.</p>

<p>I helped S1 a lot with the entire college process. He’s now at a top school with an outside scholarship that is almost full-ride. Would he have made it there without any guidance (ours is crappy rural school/guidance dept) and the eons of info I learned from cc? I’m not sure, and I don’t regret a second of all the help I gave. I’m willing to bet a lot of parents on cc feel the same.</p>

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<p>“I think by his defination, I am a hoovering type of of parent. I made sure my kids went to the right pre-school, in order to get into the right elementary school, and so on…”</p>

<p>Yea, I think that’s the definition right there.</p>

<p>OMG!</p>

<p>“in order to get into the “right” elementary school???” Are you kidding me?</p>

<p>I’m going to make some assumptions based on this information:</p>

<p>1) You’re white and
2) You’re well-off, and
3) You don’t want your kids to spend time around “certain people.”</p>

<p>My wife and I, on the contrary, decided that even though we’ve worked hard enough to put ourselves in a position to dictate which school our kids go to, purposely WANTED them to go to local public schools. Why? So they would be exposed to different cultures, races and kids from various income levels. So they would get some REAL LIFE social interaction. Not the vanilla make-believe variety.</p>

<p>One of the things we discussed when moving from Illinois back to Texas was that our kids going to school with blacks and hispanics and kids of any other race was a VERY GOOD thing and they weren’t getting enough exposure back in the enviroment we had them in at their so-called “safer” Illinois schools.</p>

<p>Look, we obviously come from completely different backgrounds and see the world in completely different ways. I come from the school of hard knocks and knew how to use food stamps at a very young age. Those experiences taught me a LOT about people, and how judging others by the color of their skin or the clothes on their back is just plain wrong. It also helped me learn to appreciate the REAL person, and not just the situation they are in… I thank GOD for my tough upbringing every single day.</p>

<p>But having said that, we both want what’s best for our kids too, and I appreciate that. I appreciate any parent today that actually gives a damn and tries to do the best they can. Obviously there are lots of different ways to go about it though. Who’s to say which one is right? Hindsight is always better…</p>

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<p>"In the middle of my sr. year, my dad sat me down and said, “Where are you going to college?” (that was the first sentence regarding my college career). His next sentence was, “How are YOU going to pay for it?”</p>

<p>I think the middle of sr. year is a * little* late to tell one’s child they are paying their own way entirely!! I went into panic mode…"</p>

<p>sryrstress, have you ever looked at the flipside of that? The “personal responsibility side”? Meaning, did it ever occur to you that you had the right to ask questions and have those discussions PRIOR to the middle of your senior year? Perhaps your parents would have LOVED to have YOU more involved in the decision making prior to that?</p>

<p>There are always two sides to every story…</p>

<p>John.</p>

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<p>John,
Not sure where you were in 1982, but where I lived, the students didn’t think about college, didn’t search out colleges, sent 1 ap to the state university, we all signed up for the SAT and took a pencil and went one Sat. morning. We had no guidance department, blahblahblah. It was a very different world than today.</p>

<p>You are right. It NEVER occurred to me, at 17 years old, with 2 college educated parents, whose education was paid for by the grandparents. that they would NOT help me with college. It was always the unspoken message we would go to college. Based on those facts, I would not expect the child to be the one to ask questions and initiate those discussions. That’s the parents’ responsibility–in 1982 and 2009.</p>

<p>The thing I love about cc is the kindness and helpfulness most posters try to give. Some more than others. A few are condescending, arrogant, and speak on matters of which they are unaware. Oldfort has made many helpful posts. Your slams are unwarranted.</p>

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<p>Ironically, despite the “drive-by ■■■■■■■■”, this discussion has been, for the mostpart, many parents agreeing with each other and a few students acknowledging the role of a helpful parent.</p>

<p>I appreciate your compliment, John/limbwalker. I do have to tell you, though, since oldfort isn’t on line right now, you have made some incorrect assumptions about her. I’ll let her respond herself to your post, but just thought I’d let ya know that you might fall a bit from that limb you went out on…</p>

<p>** crosspost with sryrstress***</p>