<p>The vast majority of Michigan students have/had absolutely no interest in attending HYPSM. Only the one’s who’ve applied to Michigan and those schools would have chosen HYPSM, along with some others. over Michigan in most cases. This might come as a shock to you, but not everyone wants to attend HYPSM, even if they could get in. There are brilliant minds all over this country that have gotten into their dream schools, and the vast majority of them aren’t HYPSM. Furthermore, I’d say the vast majority never even considered HYPSM. Now I realize that the public schools where you are from sakky might be substandard, but I can assure you that in parts of this country there are state schools that are just as good, if not better, than all but a relatively few of the private elites.</p>
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<p>Why? Because of the name of the school? MIT is actually highly ranked in certain humanities such as linguistics and philosophy, which have nothing to do with technology the last time I checked. Nor does political science have anything to do with technology, yet MIT’s is a top-ranked program. </p>
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<p>It’s the same pass that Berkeley gets for not having a medical school. I know a lot of people who think that Berkeley has a medical school, or at least they did until I showed them otherwise. </p>
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<p>Who is saying that those schools are the best in everything? Like I said, if you have a problem with people making such statements, you should take it up with them. Nobody here is making those statements. </p>
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<p>So then let’s talk about Berkeley. Berkeley, through a powerful brand name, attracts boatloads of students who, frankly, probably would be better served at another school. As a case in point, I don’t think Berkeley is a particularly desirable school for aspiring premeds, not only because it lacks a medical school (and hence research and clinical opportunities), but also because the premed advising is lacking and the vicious grading culture is anathema to the compilation of a compelling med-school application. But a lot of people think that Berkeley is a strong premed school, due to the power of the brand name, when they may well be better served at UCLA or another UC.</p>
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<p>If you mean “tomorrow” literally then sure. If you mean “tomorrow” fifty years down the road I wouldn’t be so sure about it. H and Y’s disposition to dismiss and not recognize engineering as a program not worth making elite may come back to bite them in the you know where. This isn’t even too unexpected; to think about it almost all schools considered elite that were founded well after the American Revolution boast strong engineering and science programs. Hell, even Duke which has become sort of a punching bag on this forum boasts a world class BME program.</p>
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I do because it’s not true. At least for S which I know personally. And I’d assume the same for YPM and yes, for even Michigan. Why would a Michigan engineer decide to go get an AB at Harvard? What a waste of his/her time and money!</p>
<p>Just incase anyone is getting confused here’s my position (which may or not be rjk’s): I claim that some schools tippy-top elite status need to be reevaluated because they do not offer at the very least a very strong engineering program. If they don’t have engineering, they aren’t tippy-top elite, if they offer it and bastardize it, they aren’t tippy-top elite, if they offer it and are very strong at it, then they are.</p>
<p>^^^That’s been the gist of my argument from the start.</p>
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<p>Actually, it IS true, and S’s Dean of Admissions has even publicly reported that Stanford loses most cross admits to H (but does a little better against Y and to even better against P)…of course, some of those cross admits are easterners who would rather be closer to home, and choose H for that fact alone.</p>
<p>That’s not what sakky said. Sakky said many Stanford students would rather be at Harvard. And I contest that. Perhaps more cross-admits would, but not Stanford students.</p>
<p>^^^^I hope they’re not losing them to the engineering school!</p>
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<p>Sure they would. We can ask Alexandre about it, if you would like. </p>
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<p>Consider your own quote:</p>
<p>*But since they get the very best students because everyone is spoon-fed from birth that these are the best schools in everything, they are still the top elites *</p>
<p>Those are your own words. So first you complain that schools like HYPSM wield their brand names to (supposedly undeservedly) attract the top students, but then you claim that that wouldn’t happen against the students at UM. Oh really? Are you sure? </p>
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<p>Is that supposed to be another insult? I already warned you once. </p>
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<p>Then answer me this: if UM is really so good, then why do only 45% of the admittees decide to actually enroll? The majority of UM admittees chose to go somewhere else. Why?</p>
<p>“That’s not what sakky said. Sakky said many Stanford students would rather be at Harvard. And I contest that. Perhaps more cross-admits would, but not Stanford students.”</p>
<p>Exactly the same thing I said for Michigan students.</p>
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<p>Oh, Stanford students too. Keep in mind that cross-admits are just that: students who were actually admitted to both schools, of which Harvard wins against Stanford (and every other regular university for that matter). </p>
<p>But what that also means is that there were plenty of students at Stanford but who didn’t get into Harvard and are therefore not ‘cross-admits’, but if they were, they would probably have chosen Harvard at similar rates that the cross-admits did.</p>
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<p>Same logic - but even more powerfully tilted towards Harvard. Let’s face it, lots of UM students didn’t apply to Harvard at all because they knew they wouldn’t get in (in contrast, the S/H applicant pool tends to be highly correlated). But if they had applied and gotten in, they would probably have gone.</p>
<p>bluebayou,
H is indeed special. Some perspective engineering students would even give up SM for H. They figure H is once in a lifetime opportunity while there’s always grad school for engineering. </p>
<p>According to an article from Yale in early 00s, S and Y splitted evenly.</p>
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<p>When was I talking about Michigan engineers? We’re not talking about Michigan engineers. After all, most Michigan students are not engineers. We’re talking about the * entire* Michigan student body, most of which would rather be going to Harvard.</p>
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<p>Well, I can find one reason of the bat why that assumption is wrong. Not all Stanford students applied to Harvard so they obviously don’t compose a similar pool as the cross-admits so no they don’t choose at a similar rate. Secondly, all Stanford students were ready to reject every other school they got admitted to (which in some cases includes, believe it or not, Harvard) in order to attend Stanford. The same can’t be said of the cross-admits. Some of them would have attended Princeton, MIT, Yale, or even other schools before considering Stanford when it looks like S vs H. So no, you cannot make that claim.</p>
<p>Michigan is a state supported school that has a fairly large OOS enrollment. It gets a lot of out of state students who apply to it as a safety, just in case they don’t get into their dream school. Those students who are accepted but never matriculate at Michigan, never really intended to go there in the first place. Your comment was about students who actually attend Michigan, and that’s what I took exception to.</p>
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<p>Are you saying that MIT isn’t, as you call it, ‘tippy-top elite’? If not, then what makes engineering so special? </p>
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<p>It seems to me that much of the argument on this thread revolves around a supposedly special status that engineering holds that other majors don’t. I’d like to hear more about why engineering is so important.</p>
<p>Full disclosure - I myself hold 3 engineering degrees from some of the top-ranked engineering schools in the country, which shall remain unnamed. I therefore have personal reasons to want to believe that engineering should be provided priority assignment. However, I’d like to understand why that should be the case.</p>
<p>“After all, most Michigan students are not engineers. We’re talking about the entire Michigan student body, most of which would rather be going to Harvard.”</p>
<p>Before it was HYPSM, now it’s just Harvard. Next it will be HBS or the law or medical school.</p>
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<p>Uh, carefully read the claims that I did make. I said that Harvard beats Stanford for most cross-admits. I then also said that many (but not necessarily most) current Stanford students would rather be going to Harvard.</p>
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<p>Now I have to ask you a question. What would you say about a school that doesn’t offer econ as a major? Could that school really be considered a top school? Now what would you say about a school that doesn’t offer LGBT studies. Could that school be considered a top school?</p>
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<p>But where did you come up with many? From the lines of thought you posted. How about this, would you like to hear that two years ago only 17 students tried to transfer out of Stanford? Even if we assume all 17 attempted to transfer to Harvard, that hardly constitutes “many” when you have an undergraduate student body of over 6000. Now of course it would be incorrect to state that there aren’t more kids who would go to Harvard if given the choice next year (because not all such kids would choose to transfer) it’s as equally erroneous to say many based on the cross-admit data.</p>
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<p>Or even to Berkeley’s medical school, right? </p>
<p>Besides, my position stands: let’s face it, most Michigan undergrads would rather go to Harvard, and certainly to one of HYPSM.</p>
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<p>Yes to both. I don’t know that any single major - or even a family of majors in the case of engineering - holds any priority status. </p>
<p>Personally, I find majors highly irrelevant, for the simple fact is, most undergrads will not actually pursue whatever their major was for a career. Let’s face it - most history majors are not going to become professional historians. Most poli-sci majors are not going to become professional political scientists, and yes, most econ majors are not going to become professional economists. And, yes, even many engineering students, especially from the top schools, are not actually going to become engineers. A major is merely a constellation of coursework one chooses in order to earn a degree before moving on to whatever career or grad school you have set before you.</p>