<p>@LucieTheLakie, I am simply say that when I say “Harvard,” one does not immediately think of a college basketball superpower. One imagines a place of academic rigor and a hub of achievement. I am sorry that you do not feel that your alma mater does not live up to the general opinion about the Ivy League, but where I come from, saying you go to Penn is quite an impressive achievement. </p>
<p>I understand that athletics may be emotionally or financially tied to these colleges, and I am not saying that it should be ignored, but their grades should honestly be within some sort of believable range. Since the majority of students admitted are not sports stars, that pool should not be filled by “special qualities” (whatever that means). And honestly, in recent times, it has been an absolute crapshoot. I know people who have absolutely no athletic ability, barely a 2000 SAT score, and still get in. </p>
<p>@CE527M, Ah, that is not what I said at all. My friend does not believe that they are superior, and neither do I. I do feel that to completely discredit their obvious name recognition, endowment, and potential job prospects, is the silly plight of the bitter reject. There could be schools several other schools where you could feel at home. </p>
<p>I just found it interesting how he did not get into these institutions, while he was accepted into every other college he applied to.</p>
<p>@jsmike123qwe It just seemed like you were implying it. Too many people on here act like their life is over with an Ivy rejection, so I assumed you were the same.</p>
<p>What other schools did he get into? It really was probably just a numbers thing; other people may have had slightly more unique EC’s or whatnot.</p>
<p>@CE527M, he got into NYU, Northeastern, BU, Case Western, UBuff, and some state schools. So not really a bad listing of choices, but knowing his high school career, I do find it surprising that 4 Ivies seemed to selectively decide against him lol. But I guess he is satisfied with where he is now…</p>
<p>You’ve heard of the crime of driving while black? It sounds like your friend was guilty of striving while Asian. If you think I’m alluding to racial bias, hold that thought. I don’t think that is exactly it.</p>
<p>The Ivies get boatloads of applications from students of Asian descent with high scores, nearly perfect grades, and long lists of ECs. Yet the percentage of Asian students caps out at around 20%. It could, perhaps, go up nearly to Berkeley levels (~40%) if the Ivies looked only at stats and the length of extracurricular activity lists. But they don’t. </p>
<p>You say he got into NYU, Northeastern, BU, Case Western, UBuff, and some state schools. If that’s all, then it sounds like his list was a little weak in the match and lower reach zones. Chances are, he’d have had better luck at other top ~25 national universities or at some of the top ~10 LACs. </p>
<p>I have discussed this issue at length, especially with regard to Asian americans.</p>
<p>One of the biggest factors why people are surprised at their rejection is because they thought their high scores would virtually ‘guarantee’ them a position at one of these prestigious institutions. This is despite the fact that many of these institutions have admit rates in the single digits, and have very high yields. That fact of the matter is that a 2360 really isn’t as special as you think it is. For example:</p>
<p>Having a high (or perfect) SAT scores and some ECs is not enough to get you into these schools with very low admit rates, and very high yield.</p>
<p>What might make someone with lower scores get accepted? Well, it could be a variety of reasons. Xi Mingze, for example, is the daughter of Xi Jinping, who’s the general secretary and president of the People’s Republic of China. She’s currently (or was) enrolled in Harvard under a fake name. </p>
<p>It’s much more important to Harvard to have as its alumni the children of the elite Chinese politburo (among other rich and powerful people) than it is to comprise its class of students with just perfect (or high) SAT scores. And when you’re competing with people like that, unless you’re similarly hooked, you really don’t stand a chance. And yes, the Ivies get many applicants like that, even applying to schools like Cornell.</p>
<p>And I’ve said all of the above, without even getting into legacies, which a Stanford university study has shown can increase chances of getting admitted significantly.</p>
<p>At the end of the day, your friend got into some very fine colleges and will likely have a very successful career out of college. It’s not really the end of the world if he didn’t get into an Ivy.</p>
<p>First of all, I’m very proud of my alma mater, because it’s a fantastic university, not because it’s a member of the Ivy League. I loved my time at Penn and am extremely grateful that I was admitted and, more importantly, awarded enough financial aid to make it possible to graduate in four years. It was by far the most selective school I applied to and also by far the most generous. It was not, however, my personal “dream school.” </p>
<p>Unless you’re dealing with brand-obsessed people (and let’s face it, aside from the athletic component of it, the Ivy League is primarily a BRAND), nobody thinks an “Ivy League” school is inherently superior to other highly-selective colleges and universities. No one with any common sense accepts that the eight members of the Ivy League are peerless in providing an undergraduate education across all disciplines. </p>
<p>If your friend loved Columbia so much, why didn’t he apply to the University of Chicago, a far superior school to NYU (although perhaps without the brand prestige in Asia). If he loved Princeton and Dartmouth, why didn’t he apply to Duke or Vanderbilt? If he loved Cornell and was happy with Case Western, why didn’t he apply to Carnegie Mellon? If he had been interested in Penn, I would have recommended Northwestern, Johns Hopkins, WashU and Georgetown as excellent, and slightly less competitive, alternatives. </p>
<p>This whole “Ivy or Bust” death spiral is a self-perpetuating phenomenon. If you all weren’t so obsessed with them and the prestige they would afford you, the number of applications would drop off, and these schools would be a lot easier to get admitted to for everybody qualified.</p>
<p>@tk21769, forgot to mention he got into Tufts and BC as well. Well that is because that is all he applied to, in addition to the four ivies. He didn’t select his schools off of the US News and World Report Rankings.</p>
<p>@LucieTheLakie, the NEWER notion that Ivies are just your run of the mill selective college should also be dispelled. Unfortunately we live in a world where name recognition does matter, and the difference in education quality between a school like NYU and one like Yale is undeniable. Simply look at the list of schools that have been attended by Supreme Court judges, and Presidents. It is obvious that most of the world does not look at the Ivy League with the same critical eye that you do, given the large number of applicants to these schools every year. </p>
<p>He also applied to the University of Chicago, and got wait listed. He wanted to focus on pre-medicine and did not feel that Georgetown would be a good option. I know he applied to John’s Hopkins, but do not know the outcome. As for the other schools you mentioned, as I said, he did not start randomly selecting schools off of the national rankings - he wanted a medium sized school in a nice location, not too far from home. </p>
<p>I never said “Ivy or Bust.” I’m sure he will do fine in life. When I look back on it, I feel that he did not deserve to be rejected solely from ALL of those four schools. But as you can see from the undergraduate alma maters of presidents, Nobel Prize winners, and Supreme Court justices, the Ivy League must have some sort of influence on how these people end up where they do.</p>
<p>I do not know why you harbor so much dislike for the Ivy League. Don’t go assuming that everyone is stuck in an Ivy death spiral, you don’t know what other people are thinking of. As I mentioned, my friend only applied to 4 Ivies, because those where places he genuinely wanted to go. The simple fact is that in life there are some things that are better than others in some respects. Often times people who are insecure about their own choices make the same argument that you do- that the school is not worth the hype. But the job outcomes and salary differences cannot be denied. The Ivy Leagues have a reputation as institutions that foster academics. And that is not something that is earned lightly! </p>
<p>@beyphy, do you realize how ridiculous that sounds? It appears that you are saying that Princeton selectively choses against students with perfect SAT scores and GPA. You might have a point there actually, it seems like colleges are now looking for that less than perfect 2130 SAT and 3.2 GPA… and more on how far you can throw a ball or any “special talent” you have. Look, the American educational system needs to look itself straight in the face and correct this nonsense. Colleges have become the biggest crapshoot in all of life…</p>
<p>I see nothing at all wrong with the range of colleges to which the student applied. He didn’t get into his “reach” schools. Not a big deal really.</p>
<p>Every high school has a handful of bright kids with good grades and strong SAT/ACT/Subject test scores. I’m not sure why so many kids (and their parents) think that great numbers and some extracurricular involvement entitles them to one or more acceptances at Ivy League schools. Students who are accepted to multiple top-tier colleges have distinguished themselves in non-academic ways…with passion, initiative, and hard work. That can take any number of forms – athletic/musical/scientific/literary talent, community service, entrepreneurial endeavors, etc.</p>
<p>Being involved in a few extracurriculars and holding quasi-leadership positions in them is, quite frankly, not that impressive from the perspective of an admissions officer who sees that sort of thing on thousands of applications.</p>
<p>So many people on this forum and out in the real world equate an Ivy League education with “making it.” Funny thing is that the vast majority of my college classmates didn’t need to attend an Ivy League school in order to be successful in life. They didn’t need HYPBPCDC on their resumes. They had the raw ability and drive to be successful in life regardless of educational pedigree.</p>
<p>I"m sorry but he got into Tufts, BU, NYU and others…and he’s complaining because he didn’t get into 4 other schools? Maybe its his sense of entitlement that didn’t get him in…i’m feeling really cranky today but so what if a kid got in the 2300s on his tests and he participated in school events…What was he going to bring to these schools (and his fellow students) that would have an impact on that institution? </p>
<p>He applied to at least 14 schools, which is a pretty long list. Didn’t get into four, possibly five.</p>
<p>Try taking a look at the admissions results threads from last year for Columbia, Dartmouth, etc etc. Many, many rejected students with near-perfect stats, challenging coursework, great commitment to various ECs. There are just more great kids, and not room for all of them to go to Princeton or wherever. The silver lining is that this means there are many more schools which have brilliant/talented/hardworking undergraduate student bodies. </p>
<p>@SouthernHope, when did I say he was complaining? I, MYSELF, find it surprising that given his scores, gpa, extracurriculars, essays, and recs, he did not get into even cornell, which tends to accept people with much lower scores and people less committed to extracurriculars. If anyone has any constructive comments for how students like this kid, who did everything he was supposed to and then some, was rejected from these schools? And it seems that the most reasonable answer is that admissions committees simply pick who they want based on what mood they are in, and use diversity as a shield to defer any criticism.</p>
<p>Despite all the talk about holistic admissions and hooks, the schools we’re talking about have some of the highest average stats in the country. Harvard, Yale, and Princeton tie with Caltech for the highest 75th percentile SAT M+CR scores. Dartmouth, Columbia, Chicago, MIT and Harvey Mudd follow right behind in a tie for the #5 spot. These schools far out-score schools that admit students based on the numbers alone.</p>
<p>@SouthernHope, what are you talking about man? I love how some people just equate high grades with no social life or extracurricular pursuits. Look, this kid had many friends and was organized in his time to pursue a range of extracurriculars such as math and science contests, volunteering at a local homeless shelter, leading a local youth group.</p>
<p>I’m sorry, I am very cranky today as well, but do you think that being able to recite 987 digits of pi makes you able to “contribute” to other students?? Maybe setting up a fake charity is the way to contribute… but to other students…? The fact is most colleges won’t understand the true personality of a student until after they are admitted. Colleges know this and use this nonsense of “contributing to others” as a pathetic excuse for their admissions “lottery.” </p>
<p>Because thats the sort of crap they look for in your essays. Maybe you mean race? Because I have seen a black student with very similar upbringing/ neighborhood to another white student, and similar grades, be accepted to college much more easily than the white student. Not making any racial statements, just stating an experience. </p>
<p>@tk21769, Okay he did not apply to Harvard or Yale, but again the focus of my question is really Cornell. Cornell has a 17% acceptance rate, and from our own school, all the students admitted had lower stats… It really is unjustifiable what some of these admissions committees do. I mean sure, as outside observers you can say that “oh grades aren’t everything” or “grades don’t count that much,” but to people who have done nothing but work hard in high school it really is like a slap in the face. Not to mention the comical route that the American educational system is taking… no wonder we are so behind in math and science with attitudes like… “oh getting the perfect scores don’t really matter…” And then we complain about how our college students are so much behind other countries…</p>
<p>He’d have had an automatic full ride to Thurgood Marshall’s (law school) alma mater, Howard, if he’d applied in time!</p>
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<p>Perhaps not. But they all have 5-8% acceptance rates and applying to 4 of them means 4 shots at a 5-8% accept rate, not a 20-32% chance at one of them.</p>
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<p>Perhaps this student should have applied to colleges in countries where stats are, indeed, everything. Part of what makes the Ivy League so desirable to many is the type of students they choose and what those students go on to do…if they instead accepted only perfect scores and GPAs (which would still be more students than they could accept), would they still be as desirable…?</p>