Why does America support China?

<p>I understand that the Soviet Union was seen as a threat due to its hostile foreign policy, and that China does not yet make any world domination claims, but doesn't China violates human rights on a very large scale, and features an ideology which the United States have constantly battled all over the world? I know it's all about the money, and that supporting democratic movements in China could halt its economy, but what kind of a dirty double standard is that? Is Cuba, which has been under an economic embargo since the 60s, really that much worse than the whole of China??</p>

<p>Yesterday, there was the opening of the victims of communism memorial, at which Bush compared communism to terrorism. The monument was copied after the Goddess of Democracy, which was built by Chinese students in 1989 for the Tiananmen Square protests. Should that be taken as a hint of some sort?</p>

<p>If I'm badly misinformed, please enlighten me on the topic...</p>

<p>If you're a poli sci or law and society major or the like, then this question invokes similar questions. America supports torture, why? It supports Israel, why? It sponsors pre-emptive war, why? Israel has also been criticized by the international community as violating human rights. Israel has even legalized torture. </p>

<p>When I see the U.S. flag post-2003 or post-US led invasion of Iraq, I <em>inadvertently</em> saw hegemonic evil and human rights violations, with a skeleton face on the Statue of Liberty in the background. Looking at the US flag was completely different when I saw it back in 3rd grade. We're living in critical times, and I like I said, I now --inadvertently-- view the US flag with a sense of worry, awe, and violations of human rights. My class that I'm taking on this matter has shed light on this issue, and our government.</p>

<p>I wish life was as simple as Zinn and Chomsky and D'Souza make it seem. It's not.</p>

<p>We don't "support" China. It's obvious that we're actually doing a lot to make up plans to contain it. Do you think that the 7th Fleet is in Asia because of the grave threat from Burma? Laos?</p>

<p>What is the alternative, however, to engagement with a tinge of containment? China is a massive continental power whose government stands on a knife's edge. The alternative to the CCP is, at present, probably anarchy. Now, while the idealist in all of us would LOVE to see a democratic regime in place, can you really argue that the Cultural Revolution was a good alternative to what we have today? Most Chinese today are in many ways freer than they were 20 years ago-- that, and they have food, clothes, and some level of material consumption better than before.</p>

<p>There's also the security component. Conflict with China could/would devastate the region. </p>

<p>Now, I'm sympathetic to idealism... but reality has to come in at a point. What's the alternative? </p>

<p>baller4lyfe,</p>

<p>Yes, the US has not been playing nice lately, and that must stop. But "hegemonic evil" is just silly.</p>

<p>America recognizes that China is on its way toward responsible (democratic) government, according to Francis ***uyama's "End of History" theory. It's going to take time, but things will work themselves out as China inches closer toward a free-market ecomony. The last thing the U.S. wants to do is trip up this natural evolution by p!ssing them off too much. Why be overly-critical when progress is taking place? It's too risky.</p>

<p>This board is ridiculous. It won't even let be write the name of a prominent political scientist!</p>

<p>LOL...yea that's kinda funny...</p>

<p>Just wondering how much worse is china with human rights then the US?</p>

<p>Tienanmen Square in ways is like Kent State.
Furlong Gong (Sp?) is a cult group...have you read their ideology? (Not the Chinese sponsored one the one they actually believe) It's like Scientology mixed with the KKK. The US has dealt with cult groups improperly...look at Waco. </p>

<p>The only thing I see is the random jailing of bloggers and political dissenters, which is bad but doesn't Israel do that?</p>

<p>About bloggers: a few days ago a European professor got arrested for trying to access LiveJournal in China. Haven't heard of him ever since (on the news, not as in he disappeared, LOL..)</p>

<p>probably because something boring like he was returned unharmed happened...</p>

<p>UCLAri, to answer your criticism of my silly remark:</p>

<p><a href="http://baltimorechronicle.com/2007/020507ROBERTS.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://baltimorechronicle.com/2007/020507ROBERTS.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>Look down in the red and you will see America has been considered a hegemonic evil, and it is published by authors. You thinking its silly is your thought, and that's it.</p>

<p>Why does America support China?</p>

<p>Why does the rhino let the tickbird ride on its back?</p>

<p>Symbiosis, my friend.</p>

<p>
[quote]
and features an ideology which the United States have constantly battled all over the world?

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Intellectual property piracy? That's pretty much what the U.S. is battling these days.</p>

<p>It's hardly Communism at this point. China doesn't seem to harbor the least bit of interest in spreading Communism--for that matter, it doesn't seem to harbor the least bit of interest in preserving Communism in its own country.</p>

<p>The interest it has in regimes that have bad records in human rights is primarily due to economic necessity--meaning oil. This is why it fraternizes with Sudan and the like. Though, of course, this is partially a function of the U.S. "containment" too--the U.S. buys so much oil from the OTHER human rights violating regimes that China has to settle for the ones that have the worst records.
It's economic, not ideological.</p>

<p>The ruling party might still call itself the "Communist Party", but policy-wise with the demise of the "iron rice bowl" policies and other similar measures, China is actually far LESS of a socialist country than many of the European nations. What they call themselves and what they actually are is a rather wide chasm.</p>

<p>
[quote]
and that supporting democratic movements in China could halt its economy

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Eh... not really. The Soviet Union had a distinct unrest within it. It's citizens didn't like it--or at least a large part of it didn't. The U.S. was actually rather admired, in spite of (or perhaps because of) the propaganda that the state pumped out--if it's common knowledge that the State lies, the general population usually believes the exact opposite of its propaganda.</p>

<p>There's a reason defections were, for the most part, one-way during the Cold War.</p>

<p>The Communist Party in China, however, holds a certain mandate to rule. The citizens are fine with them ruling... as long as they continue to create jobs and improve their lifestyles with the policies... which leads back to creation of more jobs.</p>

<p>If you look at it this way, China's more egregious policies in terms of international trade can be understood--all of them try to increase the raw number of jobs, regardless of whether or not the jobs are of high quality. The government is also fostering better jobs for the purpose of creating more sectors, but keeping unemployment low so the population won't kick them out of power is the primarily motivation here.</p>

<p>Speaking of Cuba, any attempt to foster "democratic movements" in China to overthrow the government is much more likely to end in another Bay of Pigs fiasco than another fall of the Berlin Wall.</p>

<p>
[quote]
Is Cuba, which has been under an economic embargo since the 60s, really that much worse than the whole of China?

[/quote]
</p>

<p>It's right off the coast and small enough that we're far more comfortable turning it into a pariah.</p>

<p>America is quite versed in double standards, in terms of its own adherence, or lack thereof, to the Geneva Conventions and support for human-rights violating regimes (before, because they were anti-communist, and now because they have oil--say... Saudi Arabia). There are quite literally countries in the Middle East (Bahrain) where if the U.S. pulled out its supporting troops, the government would fall.</p>

<p>The answer to this is you're right. It is a double standard. But that isn't something that's uncommon in American foreign policy.</p>

<p>
[quote]
Yesterday, there was the opening of the victims of communism memorial, at which Bush compared communism to terrorism. The monument was copied after the Goddess of Democracy, which was built by Chinese students in 1989 for the Tiananmen Square protests. Should that be taken as a hint of some sort?

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Attacking Iraq, a pariah state for a long time, is one thing. Even Iran is one thing, since it as well is isolated from the international community.</p>

<p>Attacking China is QUITE another. There's are VERY good reasons why the President did not add China to his "Axis of Evil".</p>

<p>It's big, and has a strong enough military to hold out at least for a little bit against the U.S.--if nothing else, inflict many casualties upon the American troops.</p>

<p>America would have no support whatsoever in trying to establish a new government, and would have it quickly blow up--very badly--in its face, which is a bad thing considering how many people that would be blowing up and becoming angry at the U.S.</p>

<p>China is NOT a pariah state. The UN would immediately condemn America's actions, and many of China's biggest trading partners would take... erm... umbrage to the issue. The U.S. would also have no good staging areas either.
Japan would NEVER agree to let itself becoming a staging area against China in an American-initiated attack, considering it is a huge trading partner (surpassing the U.S. at this point, if I'm not mistaken).
Taiwan would not be pleased, but would likely be long taken out of play before it could be used as such as staging area.</p>

<p>Europe would condemn it as well. While it might not throw troops AGAINST the U.S., it certainly won't make things easier. Some African and Oceania regimes might even send troops to aid China.</p>

<p>It would be a unholy mess.</p>

<p>Besides that, China is a huge trading partner of the U.S.--probably the most important factor, actually. America is not going to shoot itself in the foot.</p>

<p>Containment naturally chills relations. Although America is NOT likely to initiate military action, no matter how war-mongering an administration we have (for the reasons I outlined above), alienating China is not in its best interest since it has its own international clout on the global stage.</p>

<p>The Soviet Union was an economic basket case. China is something quite different.</p>

<p>
[quote]
America recognizes that China is on its way toward responsible (democratic) government, according to Francis ***uyama's "End of History" theory.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>If that's the case, then why have we spent so much time and energy on containment? Why do all the white papers place China up there as the next great power threat to our interests?</p>

<p>Sorry, but even Fu.kuyama himself is wary of China. </p>

<p>
[quote]
Look down in the red and you will see America has been considered a hegemonic evil, and it is published by authors. You thinking its silly is your thought, and that's it.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>It's not the "hegemonic" part that's silly. That's true. The US is a hegemon. What's silly is thinking that it's necessarily evil. Just because Paul Craig Roberts says what he says doesn't make it true. The current unipolar world has allowed for a lot of good-- as did a bipolar world. If the Europeans had spent the latter half of the 20th century balancing as they did in the former half, do you think we would have had the EU? Do you think ASEAN and other multilateral organizations in Asia without the 7th Fleet and American forward deployment?</p>

<p>I'm not saying that the US isn't a hegemon. I'm saying that your blanket statement of its being "evil" doesn't account for how much it's actually improved international relations. US hegemony gave us Bretton Woods and the WTO. Multilateralism would have probably given us another arms race in Europe and Asia. Read Heginbotham (or pretty much all IR scholars) on Asia, and you'll realize that the current bipolar order of the US at sea, China at land has been the most stabilizing option yet. </p>

<p>All the ballyhoo about the bad doesn't answer a very complex question: What's the alternative? Bilateralism? Multilateralism?</p>

<p>Do you think that a world with the US, EU, Japan, China, Russia, India and other states balancing against one another is "better?" I sure don't. </p>

<p>
[quote]
It is a double standard. But that isn't something that's uncommon in American foreign policy.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Hmm...more like, "that isn't something that's uncommon in foreign policy in general." Let's not fool ourselves into thinking that there is some sort of definite morality in international relations. There isn't. IR scholars don't call the international order "anarchy" for nothing.</p>

<p>^You took the evil part tremendously. When I wrote it, my conscious was saying bully, "mean" and, at times, illegitimate. Certainly, the US isn't close to the likes of Nazi Germany, but it's getting there. Judging by right now, torture is rampant and massive, and the results of Operation Iraqi Freedom, soley by the Bush administration, had disastrous effects, probably worse than did 11 September 2001. I still like my country because its my country, but that doesn't mean it did not eff up.</p>

<p>And Israel legalizing torture is probably the nastiest thing I've ever heard of. The Jews were tortured and murdered,. Yet they re-establish the like?</p>

<p>baller4lyfe,</p>

<p>Actually, according to even codings by Amnesty International, who is generally known for being overwhelmingly critical of the United States' policies, the US is remarkably low on the political terror scale-- in fact, it's still lower than the UK was during the height of problems with Northern Ireland.</p>

<p>You really didn't answer my question, though, and instead deflected with pretty off-topic stuff about Israel. What's the alternative to American hegemony?</p>

<p>^Good question, and it needs to be answered. I have a final that I'm studying for and so I shouldn't be on these boards, but go figure. And my comment on Israel was not meant to steer away from America - is there anything wrong with throwing in another comment that's on my mind? I love my US, are you kidding? But I'm still dissapointed in its behavior in Guantanamo, Abu Ghraib, and the like.</p>

<p>And where are those codings, can you post them.</p>

<p>baller4lyfe,</p>

<p>No, there is no problem with posting your thoughts, but it's hard to actually "discuss" something if there's no focus to the discussion.</p>

<p>Look for the Gibney and Dalton political terror scale, Freedom House's rule of law data, and most stuff by Polity IV Project. While it's true that there has been a downward turn in rule of law in the US in the past 5 years, it seems that there has also been a significant backlash against it, and we're likely to swing back away from Gitmo-style thinking in the next few years.</p>

<p>Remember, it was only 60 or so years ago that we set up INTERMENT CAMPS. I'm not saying that we've made everything perfect, but put things into historical context.</p>

<p>China is becoming a big industrial powerhouse now. their economy will be booming like hell in the future.. we need the connections.</p>

<p>Money perhaps? And the > 1 billion population might make them oh, I dunno, kinda... big?</p>