<p>@Madalorian Do you think here in the midwest the craziness tends to be on the sports side rather than the academic side? That’s my feeling. </p>
<p>Seems like a safe point to note that there will always be parents who think their way is best or that they have some unique understanding of what it takes. And it’s always been like that. Now we just have public forums, rather than a soapbox. Now we make our thoughts public, rather than saving them for the dinner table or “car jail.” There has always been this “worked for me, so I know it’s good” attitude out there. </p>
<p>@lookingforward - “car jail” - LOL. I used that very effectively with my teenage son during HS.</p>
<p>I agree with @PTigerMomAlum about @awcntdb. Awcntdb, whether you admit it or not, you, your wife and your children mapped a course so that your children were successful applicants to top-tier schools. By forging a path that you thought would help them be successful applicants, you were by the very nature of that planning, entering into the competition. Correct me if I am wrong, but I don’t remember anywhere on the common app where it mandates AP score reporting. I am sure that on your children’s applications the rigor of their curriculum was readily apparent. Furthermore, I doubt if your kids put on their applications that they opted out of taking the tests because they didn’t believe in joining the “arms race” of elite college admissions. Once again, I could be wrong about that. Correct me if I am. </p>
<p>You also stated that you had a minimum score that you would accept for the SAT and if your children didn’t score high enough, you would have insisted they study and take the test again. Fortunately for you and them, they “blew the tests away”. Obviously, you have very naturally intelligent children who know how to color within the lines when necessary. This always make putting together an application to an elite school easier. You never stated that their score would be their score. Why was that? Probably because you were very cognizant of the fact that a minimum score was necessary for them to be admitted to a top tier school; therefore, that was your requirement. When it came to that test there was no opting out. </p>
<p>Also, I think that you posted on another thread concerning Kwasi Enin that your son had taken 11 AP classes by the end of 10th grade. I think to paraphrase, it went something like, “What’s the big deal? I did that by the end of tenth grade.” If this is what your son did, that is considered a challenging HS curriculum by any standards. Whether he took the tests or not, how may I ask is that opting out? It sounds like opting in to me. You planned your children’s HS path to make sure that they were academically qualified candidates to any school to which they applied. This is what the majority of parents do for their kids who are applying to elite schools. I will already counter the argument that is coming. We only did it so that are kids were intellectually challenged. While your children probably took these classes for the intellectual stimulation and challenge, it is disingenuous to imply that you didn’t know that taking all the AP classes (whether they took the tests or not) would help them when they applied to elite colleges. </p>
<p>I think that people are irritated by the impression you give in your posts that you stayed out of the fray of elite school competition because you are above the fray and are superior to others. The poor pitiful kids who chase after high AP, SAT scores etc… Your plan for your children started early on and wasn’t a haphazard approach. You entered the competition through Door A, other people entered through Door B, Door C etc… You knew that grades and test scores alone wouldn’t do it. Those were a given in your household. In many ways, you were already ahead of the game by realizing the aforementioned fact. You made sure that you supported your kids in ECs that would make them stand out amongst the thousands of applicants in elite college admissions and it worked. Congratulations. </p>
<p>Now, let me tell you our story. At the end of his sophomore year, my son decided that he wanted to go to Yale. Having no idea of the competition to get into top-tier schools (I joined CC In October of my son’s senior year), and thinking my son is a great kid -okay, I admit that I am biased- ;), I said go for it. I remember asking my son’s GC if my son even had a shot at Yale and he said, “why not my son.” - as he was talking up Vassar and Bard! Not exactly a ringing endorsement, but if you don’t apply, you definitely won’t get in. My one comment to my son was that he would have to go to the school that gave him the most money. There was no planning on my part other than expecting my son to bring home good grades. Wow, was I naive. This may have been a case of ignorance is bliss. I didn’t even know that some schools required SAT subject test. Fortunately, my son wanted to go to Yale where they weren’t required, nor were they required on the other schools on his list; so, he didn’t have to take the tests at the same time as he was working on college applications.</p>
<p>My son is a musician and I supported him in his musical endeavors. Music was and is his ECs. I will readily admit that my son is a very talented musician which made it very easy to support him in his passion for music. When my son came home and said that he wanted to audition for two choir classes, I supported him in his decision even though it meant that he would have one fewer academic classes both his junior and senior year. What a great decision he made. His two years in choir were incredible. My son didn’t chase after school leadership positions, not because he saw people who sought school leadership positions as ‘less than’, but because it isn’t in his nature. He didn’t volunteer 100+ hours every year. He volunteered doing something he loved, i.e., music. Where this lack of volunteerism and leadership hurt him was when he applied for outside scholarships. I get the impression that you can afford to foot the entire bill for an elite education. Some people do not have that luxury; so, their kids need leadership positions and volunteer hours to even be eligible for the outside scholarships/scholarship that would make an elite school education possible for them. I am on the other end of the SES, so it truly was like winning the lottery when my son was accepted. </p>
<p>I don’t want to paint the wrong impression. There was every expectation that my son would do well in high school and go to college. In the summer after his junior year, I helped my son look at schools on the internet, ran net price calculators and looked at schools that seemed like a good match for him. I supported him every step of the way and made sure his financial paperwork was completed on time. Basically, the same thing most parents do. </p>
<p>While your approach was a much more informed approach about what it takes to be successful in the elite admissions arena, at the end of the day, both of our approaches had the desired results which were acceptances into the top choices for our children. Aren’t we blessed? :)</p>
<p>BTW- I do have a university decal along with my public radio decal on my rear window . Both are institutions which I support. </p>
<p>I had the test scores and GPA to attend a more competitive college, but I decided not to based on a very positive experience I had during a summer camp run by the college I ended up attending. The school was such a great fit for me. I genuinely loved every aspect of it.</p>
<p>Despite all of this, family members were pressuring me to “straighten up” and follow the old formula - attend whichever school I could get into that had the best name. To them, it wasn’t about fit, or the quality of the program I was interested in… it was about name brand and being able to impress others, and that is just not my personality. </p>
<p>Now that I am 6 years out of college with a great job, I can easily say that I made the right decision. In hindsight, all of that worrying over prestige and trying to one-up others by getting into the “better” college was time wasted. Fit is so important, and I strongly encourage other students not to become blinded by prestige… consider ALL of your options carefully.</p>
<p>Our school “expects” kids enrolled in AP classes to take the tests. I didn’t realize that not taking them was even an option until recently. And I’m not sure why anyone would skip taking them as they can provide flexibility and/or significant cost-savings in college. Aside from the obvious possibility of cutting a year from college expenses, they can open the door to a semester or year abroad that would otherwise not be feasible, or enable a student to graduate with a masters while staying on campus with friends for 4 years. I like the idea that they provide some insurance against illness or other unforeseen circumstances that might otherwise force a costly 5th year of school. It is just now, in the senior year, when we have a much better idea of what and where the college program will be, that we can start saying, there’s really no point to taking this exam. Of 7 AP exams she could potentially be taking in May, I think she’ll sit for 3,</p>
<p>When I hear the stories of all the stress of high school AP classes and exams wrecking kids’ and families’ lives, I just think some kids are getting in over their heads, often pushed by overambitious parents. It’s normal for our kids to get 8-9 hours of sleep and to eat dinner with our family, except when EC schedules run late. </p>
<p>Regarding the other exams, they’re generally required. My older child averaged 2 state end of course competency type exams per year sine 6th grade. Each exam can be completed in an hour or less, though kids are allowed all day if they choose. However, they only miss one class for the exam and if they choose to sit longer, they are expected to make up the classwork for the rest of the day. There’s no way a school would excuse a kid for a whole day if not taking the test. So, we’re talking about 2 hours per year of tests which are so easy that honors students spend little to no time preparing. For the second child, they got more test-happy and my second daughter will have a total of 7 “MAP” tests over all of middle school. These are basic reading and math skills tests, and again nothing to study for, just show up for the hour or two and do it. I asked my daughter if she thought there was too much testing, after reading about the opt-out movement, and she said, no, she likes those MAP tests because taking them is a lot more challenging than anything that goes on in her classes. I don’t mind her taking them, because it’s been interesting to see her progress and they also provide percentile info not just within but across grade levels, which actually gives some info for kids who are hitting the ceiling on most testing. All in all, a non-issue.</p>
<p>Lots of great comments on this thread. Never thought reducing the hoops jumped through of the crazy school system was a negative.</p>
<p>I do find it interesting this thread is about the crazy rat race parents (and their kids) go through for college admissons and then when one set of parents opts out of what they see as crazy unnecessary rules, there are many parents who think the crazy unnecessary rules should be followed because they do or did it. Hum… the title of the thread playing out live in the thread.</p>
<p>But opting out of useless testing and blowing off the local school officials with their stupid rules may just be the beginning. </p>
<p>We gather since we - do not believe in global-warming (barbecue-loving denier here); actually appreciate companies that create jobs; do not despise the wealthy because they too do legitimate, hard work, just different work; tell our kids never take a job you do not love; tell our kids never be dependent on anyone or anything for a job, as no one owes them one; on the heels of the job advice, do not believe in retirement because no one stops doing what they really love; think private jets are a good thing because it is amazing the amount of jobs moving the jets around produces; have no animous toward oil and fossil fuels - that we have much more difference between us than useless school testing and crazy unnecessary school rules. </p>
<p>Thanks for the views of those who follow the crowd and take solace in being like everyone else. It was educational to say the least and confirms for us that opting-out was a wise decision. Again, thanks for the education.</p>
<p>^ glad you’ve been following the thread closely…there will be a test given at the end of the thread.</p>
<p>@awcntdb - Well, let’s see. You just said
So you start off with a false assertion. The title of the thread is “Why have parents gone crazy in the last 10 years?”. And while several of his initial points do involve college selection and admissions, he never actually says that nor limits the discussion to that. His last point, specifically, was
I would say showing up to school board meetings just to have your kids not take a test falls into that category. I am not saying you don’t have the right to do it. Far from it. I am just saying you are not as outside of the OP’s starting premise as you make it sound.</p>
<p>While I see the value in having some tests, I do think there could be fewer of them. For instance, at the middle school level, it’s really not necessary to test reading skills twice a year. At this age, kids aren’t going to post huge gains in a few months and the standard deviation on the test they use is higher than the expected gain. </p>
<p>But the fact is that many of these tests are being used to evaluate teachers and schools, and to say it’s not going to directly help my child so I’m going to get the school board to exempt them is rather poor citizenship in my view. We clearly do have a different set of beliefs. Our school board is also quite busy with important issues and I’m pretty sure they wouldn’t have been willing to discuss such a thing. Waste of their time.</p>
<p>I stupidly did not take AP tests when I could have. I didn’t want college to be “hard”. Little did I know that college would be easier than high school, and I could have opted out of some classes with credit if only I had taken the AP tests. Instead I either opted out without credit or ended up repeating some things.</p>
<p>awcntdb: People aren’t objecting to the idea of opting out of the rat race. We are questioning if that is what you did, in any meaningful sense. If anything, the path you followed may simply reflect a more sophisticated view of what colleges actually want than that of parents who think sending their kids to Belize for a summer or becoming VP of the anime club makes any real difference. </p>
<p>If you opted out so thoroughly, why have your kids apply to the elite schools at all? And why did the SATs matter, let alone the SAT IIs, which plenty of perfectly respectable schools don’t require at all?</p>
<p>^ And questioning the attitude the comes through.
And right, awc seems to have selectively opted out. One of the things adcoms do look for is the kid who understands there are, like it or not, expectations. An effective college generally isn’t into anarchy. You tell them how to run their business, what you think is fair and proper, at your own risk. Same as in life. That’s not being sheep. It’s the trade.</p>
<p>Btw, I do take H at its word that they end up with X more highly qualified kids vs the number of seats. It’s funny to see so many complaining their snowflakes didn’t get an admit, then that there really isn’t that big a final pool. Remember, there are many institutional needs, incl geo diversity, that affect final choices… </p>
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<p>It is a negative if has a negative impact on the school district.</p>
<p>Sometimes it isn’t just about the individual. Especially if the individual just takes a test that they don’t study for or has any personal impact on their college plans.</p>
<p>@fondmemories
"Today, many parents fear there is a continuing and dramatic decline in opportunities, which makes a degree from a “top 20” school seem like a ticket to the lifeboat. "</p>
<p>Thank you for your post. You are right! It is especially right for parents, who have nice education themselves. It is shocking to realize that your child (smart and hardworking) won’t have the same chances that we used to have. </p>
<p>“Holistic approach” is especially chilling. When my D. lost in math Olympiad, I was fine and relaxed. I knew that other kids were smarter and deserved better place. However, when she was not accepted into her dream program due to “holistic” standard, I blamed myself for not “beefing-up” her resume. </p>
<p>It is easy to judge athletics and Olympiads. The talent of your child (in comparison to others) is so obvious, that parenting won’t change anything.</p>
<p>On the other hand, school and college are very non-transparent. Holistic. Whatever. For example, in the 3d grade, kids in our school district are grouped into “advanced” track. To be on this track, kid should have 1) good grades and 2) teacher’s recommendation. Very subjective. Naturally, parents are waging their tails to get “recommendations”. Historically, children of PTA Presidents are always promoted to the advanced track 
I am no whining, I am in PTA and my D. is promoted. </p>
<p>I can’t resist:</p>
<p>@awcntdb wrote: do not believe in global-warming (barbecue-loving denier here); </p>
<p>I love a BBQ as well. Throw another steak on the grill. However, I don’t agree about the global warning thing.</p>
<p>@awcntdb wrote: appreciate companies that create jobs;</p>
<p>As do I. I wouldn’t have my job if the gentleman for whom I work hadn’t started his company in 2000. I just wish he would pay me more.</p>
<p>@awcntdb wrote: do not despise the wealthy because they too do legitimate, hard work, just different work;</p>
<p>Nor do I. Otherwise I would despise my parents who are pretty hard working and wealthy and my brother who is a very successful small business owner who works very hard himself. I also happen to like both of the men for whom I work/have worked. They have created jobs and are good people. I will reiterate the fact about being paid more. ;)</p>
<p>@awcntdb wrote: tell our kids never take a job you do not love; </p>
<pre><code> What a blessing if you manage to make it through life never doing anything but what you love. I wish you had been around when I was 25 and had just finished graduate school. My dad told me it was time to get off the dole and get a job. He didn’t particularly care whether I liked the job or not. He just wanted me to be gainfully employed. On a more serious note, always having a job you love is a luxury.
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<p>@awcntdb wrote: tell our kids never be dependent on anyone or anything for a job, as no one owes them one;</p>
<pre><code> Well those are two separate issues. We are all dependent on other people to have a job, whether it is our customers who purchase the goods and/or services that we provide or whether it is the person who employs us. A business couldn’t survive without customers and the people who work for the business. Now, if you are talking about independent wealth, that is a different story. The second point is dead bang on. No one owes anyone anything.
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<p>@awcntdb wrote: on the heels of the job advice, do not believe in retirement because no one stops doing what they really love; </p>
<pre><code>Well… My parents found other things that they love when they retired. If you love working, I say work on. I always joke that the man for whom I now work will die at his desk. He could retire today, but he loves what he does. I also joke that my retirement plan is death because I am not going to have enough money to retire. Funny, how we are going to get to the same place for two different reasons and in two different ways.
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<p>@awcntdb wrote: think private jets are a good thing because it is amazing the amount of jobs moving the jets around produces; have no animous toward oil and fossil fuels -</p>
<pre><code>I would be happy to have a private jet and avoid all those pesky lines in the airport. Alas, it isn’t meant to be. However, I am sure that I am going to return in my next life as an independently wealthy person so I will be able to try out that private jet thing. Also, I worked for someone in the oil and gas field. No animosity here either. He is a very nice man who treated me really well. I still keep in contact with him to see how his life is going. The only time I was slightly miffed with him was when he complained to me about paying his quarterly estimated taxes. Mind you his quarterly payments were more than I made working for several years. I was always tempted to say that it would be happy to switch with him, I.e., take his income and pay his taxes and he could have mine, but thought discretion was the better part of valor.
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<p>@ awcnt wrote: we have much more difference between us than useless school testing and crazy unnecessary school.</p>
<pre><code> I agree 100%.
</code></pre>
<p>Californiaaa, why would you blame yourself for not “beefing up” your daughters resume? Shouldn’t any beefing be up to her? 8-| </p>
<p>" glad you’ve been following the thread closely…there will be a test given at the end of the thread"</p>
<p>:D GA2012MOM! Will this test be graded on a curve? </p>
<p>Great sense of humor, @momofmusician17! We need that every once in awhile on these posts!</p>
<p>^^ Not sure about the curve yet, but there is no opting out for anybody, the BOE is closed for the year. </p>