<p>Hunt,</p>
<p>It’s not limited to immigrants. </p>
<p>I’ve come across many higher-SES folks in the urban NE and surrounding suburbs who are just as bad/worse about this Ivy/elite or busy mentality. </p>
<p>Many of them are the ones who are doing things like subjecting their toddlers to exam prep to get them into “Kindergardens which will get them into Harvard” with costs rivaling that of full sticker private college tuitions.</p>
<p>In about 1966, I babysat for a neighbor’s 4 year old. The little boy said, “I’m going to go to Harvard like my daddy.” Now my father and grandfather went to Harvard, but even as a 14 y.o., I felt nothing but horror that a little child would say that. There is nothing new about striving or tiger parents.
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Well, I haven’t, and I’ve had more time to evaluate a larger sample of people. Sure, there are people as you describe, but I don’t see much change in them–they are the same status-obsessed Manhattanites that have been doing this kind of thing for many decades. The change that I see in more recent years is in the numbers of immigrants, and in particular Asian immigrants, who have gotten on this train.</p>
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<p>That period is right around the time a former supervisor turned friend’s former colleague who came from a wealthy WASP family with long ties to Princeton had to deal with a domineering father who insisted his son continue the family tradition or risk not only not having college paid for, but also being completely cut off and banished from the wealthy family. Even Harvard or Yale wouldn’t have been acceptable…it was Princeton or else. </p>
<p>Said colleague of friend fortunately was admitted and obediently attended…though he was able to show some rebelliousness by going into engineering which his father deemed “too blue-collar”. </p>
<p>Also, this craziness extends in different ways. In my old NYC neighborhood, I had a childhood classmate whose Vietnam vet 20+ year Marine former drill sergeant father was adamant his son attend one of the Federal Service Academies. Ended up giving his son a lot of BS when he failed to get admitted to any of them…even after winning a full-4 year Army ROTC scholarship to a local private college. </p>
<p>It’s not an immigrant phenomenon. It’s an upper class phenomenon. Simply put, graduates of elite colleges
cluster together as adults. Charles Murray dubbed these communities “SuperZips.” Here’s a link to a map of the entire US. You can find your own town. The higher a town’s rank, the higher the town’s median income, and the higher the concentration of college educated adults. <a href=“http://www.pbs.org/newshour/rundown/do-you-live-in-a-super-zip/[/url]”>http://www.pbs.org/newshour/rundown/do-you-live-in-a-super-zip/</a></p>
<p>Education-obsessed parents are not evenly distributed across the US. They are concentrated in a small number of towns. The Washington Post identified 650 in the entire country. Charles Murray, in Coming Apart, noted that the Superzips Many Ivy League and top-whatever graduates were at the top of their high school classes. After graduation from college, they flocked to the same small number of SuperZips. </p>
<p>Thus, some parents think their children should be at the top of the class. But it’s a different class. Instead of being the only kid who reads for fun in homeroom, their children have many classmates who read for fun. The competition in SuperZip towns can be fierce. And </p>
<p>Cobrat, one friend’s former colleague from a wealthy WASP family doesn’t prove any kind of trend. I know you interpret this as “see? tons of WASPs pressure their kids to go to just the right colleges!” but it doesn’t.</p>
<p>I’m with Hunt. I think certain SES groups have always been like this and nothing’s new, and what’s new is the trend of immigrants who (mistakenly) believe that success only comes from a handful of universities. </p>
<p>Ancedotes don’t always add to much we can rely on for universals. They get frustrating when we try to make them more than they are. k?
The stereotype of Wealthy Wasps is only good for so much explanation. Sure Mr Yale wants junior to go. But I think the nutty stuff also occurs in people between the still-striving and the older money families. They get ahead a bit, they remember how their own families struggled- and, by gummy, they aren’t going to let go or risk that their junior will be a throwback. Sometimes, as if junior’s success proves or underscores their own.</p>
<p>There are so many very wealthy kids who are not at the obvious prestige schools. </p>
<p>And if we really did some sociology on all this, you’d find lots of ways parents try to pre-form their kids-- throughout their lives.</p>
<p>Sorry new member here. What do “SES” and WASP stand for? Thanks.</p>
<p>Socioeconomic standing and the old white Anglo-Saxon Protestant.
Lately, must-know phrases for CC.</p>
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<p>While the Manhattenite contingent get themselves into the NYT, plenty of upper-SES non-immigrants with the same tendencies exist in suburban Connecticut, Long Island, and NNJ. </p>
<p>Am not saying it’s not an immigrant phenomenon…but isn’t exclusively associated with them nor should it be solely viewed as an immigrant striver phenomenon. </p>
<p>I agree with the immigrant mentality in my case. All of the boys in my family were drilled from birth to become doctors and the women nurses or attorneys. HPY were not on their list just the careers. I haven’t put that pressure on my kids; just a requirement that their decisions be very frugal.</p>
<p>“There are so many very wealthy kids who are not at the obvious prestige schools.”</p>
<p>Really, most any elite school has a handful of big-donor families who have sent and continue to send their kids there. And plenty of non-elite schools. I think the biggest lack of sophistication on CC is the lack of understanding that there is “good money” in plenty of places that aren’t necessarily Wall Street or Silicon Valley. </p>
<p>Bet you can find quite a lot of wealthy, blue blood families who wouldn’t send their kids any place but, say, Ole Miss. And their money could rival anyone’s. </p>
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<p>I disagree. My unscientific opinion is that a high percentage of the talk here is about the medical profession. In any case who am I to call fellow posters “unsophisticated”</p>
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<p>If true this would go to show that…that…what…that parents are more or less crazy than 10 years ago, or that these people are unsophisticated for not sending their kids to elite colleges, or that this is the sophisticated thing to do?</p>
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<p>You’re assuming it’s all about associating with those of great wealth. I don’t think that’s the only or even the main cause of the appeal for many aspiring to Ivies or similar elite colleges…not exclusively anyways. </p>
<p>Instead, it’s more about associating with a certain subset of those with great wealth with similar values regarding education and preferences for certain pastimes/interests over others. </p>
<p>It’s a reason why great sports appeal PG cites isn’t necessarily universal among many students applying to colleges…including elite ones. </p>
<p>In fact, colleges which play up big sports/spirit too much could turn off these students and/or their families whose values are such they may feel some Americans place too much weight on sports in education. It’s one reason why some subset of the multigenerational NE families prefer certain LACs to the Ivies or other colleges which emphasize Div 1 sports or have a strong campus sports culture. </p>
<p>"Bet you can find quite a lot of wealthy, blue blood families who wouldn’t send their kids any place but, say, Ole Miss. And their money could rival anyone’s.</p>
<p>If true this would go to show that…that…what…that parents are more or less crazy than 10 years ago, or that these people are unsophisticated for not sending their kids to elite colleges, or that this is the sophisticated thing to do?"</p>
<p>It doesn’t show any of the above. These families don’t need to send their kids to Harvard and Yale to “break into” an upper class, since they are already in all the upper class that they themselves want / need. </p>
<p>You’re assuming it’s all about associating with those of great wealth. I don’t think that’s the only or even the main cause of the appeal for many aspiring to Ivies or similar elite colleges…not exclusively anyways.</p>
<p>Instead, it’s more about associating with a certain subset of those with great wealth with similar values regarding education and preferences for certain pastimes/interests over others."</p>
<p>I think there are both kinds – those who want to go to Ivies (etc) because they think such is the PATH to great wealth, and those who aspire to being part of a social set that values a certain type of education that the Ivies (etc) provide - a social set that may be wealthy, but wealth isn’t the definer. </p>
<p>" It’s a reason why great sports appeal PG cites isn’t necessarily universal among many students applying to colleges…including elite ones."</p>
<p>Right. I never said it was universal. I just have said that among Joe Q Public, fame derived from sports is a way in which colleges become known and how brand equity gets built. More people know UCLA than Swarthmore, Williams and Amherst combined - why do you think that is?</p>
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<p>Great point. And one I do not doubt that a lot of fellow posters can easily understand.</p>
<p>If there is an impression that parents have “gone crazy” over the last 10 years, I have an opinion I am still working on that it may arise from guilt. Many people in that parent cohort had a relatively easy time of it when they were young. They see that things are tougher these days for their kids and feel guilty, perhaps, that they have not left a better world for their offspring. Voila, the obsessiveness about the issues being discussed in this thread.</p>
<p>This is an opinion that is still incubating with me, not a conclusion.</p>
<p>I don’t know any old monied folks, but I would bet they can send their offspring to just about any decent school without a significant loss in future possibilities for the kids. Perhaps they really want Harvard or Ole Miss for Junior, but with their name, money and connections Junior will be just fine regardless (if not now, when he gets his inheritance). There is Daddy’s business to employ them or Daddy’s country club buddies’ businesses. My kids have seen wealthy classmates do nothing as far as job search senior year but then their father calls a friend, and voila the kid suddenly has an interview and then a job. It seems to me the craziness would be more desperate in the upper middle class, because the student’s prospects depend more on his own educational pedigree.</p>
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<p>Among some in that set, there’s more of a sense of continuing the family tradition and “not being shown up” compared with their fellow old moneyed peers by having their kids excluded from what to them is nice exclusive social club which confirms their “sophisticated” “Masters of the Universe” status. </p>
<p>The possibility of their kids being excluded in this is one reason why this type of craziness has infested this group as well. </p>
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<p>Of course, it is not limited to immigrants And, quoting from memory, I believe that Hunt wrote something about the craziness being MORE common among immigrants, and especially immigrants from countries where higher ane elite education is a proxy for social climbing. </p>
<p>The fact that is not limited to the subgroup Hunt described does not mean that THIS group’s activities are not more prevalent. If you believe otherwise, I would think that you are deliberately oblivious or naive about the composition of the groups that target the schools that are the most often discussed on College Confidential. </p>
<p>For instance, what would your estimate be of a ratio that represents the immigrants and their scions who visit the SAT forum (here) over their representative population in the US? Would a ten to 1 surprise you? From my vantage point, it is probably a very LOW estimate. </p>
<p>Of course, feel free to run a quicl poll among your cousins. After all, the N of such group might more statistically relevant than the universe of the SAT forum on College Confidential. /insert smile! </p>
<p>PS Fwiw, the above refers to CRAZINESS and not merely to the actions of what reasonable parents would do to help their children navigate the application process. There is a HUGE difference between the two! Sending children to an expensive private K-12, or gently pushing to be active in sports, ECs, or volunteering is NOT evidence of crazy behavior. </p>
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<p>Nope, it is not about about associating with those of great wealth. It is all about becoming one of them! Again, if you believe the attraction is about quality of education as opposed to the perceived return in terms of dollars and status, I am sure you have missed most discussions about how to become a Wall Street IBer or a wealthy high tech entrepreneur. </p>