<p>@Pizzagirl, your Duke adcom will have bigger problems on their hands as they will have to be explaining to the President that seeing as the enrollment at the college of Arts and Sciences has dropped to 0 because they were able to fill the entire class with higher scoring engineers and were required to do so under Duke’s new admission policy, they’ll need to close that useless Arts and Sciences program down and rename themselves the Duke Institute of Technology.</p>
<p>fenway,
Thanks for the invitation to fix the admissions process. But were it that easy. Those of us who have been discussing this for 10 years have recognized that this is a constant moving target (changes in enrollment management strategies by the schools, changes in standardized testing, changes in FA/merit monies, changes in EA/ED/SCEA admissions etc etc etc) that have all occurred over the years. Its hot our job to “fix” it but to understand and accept where it is and learn to work with it.</p>
<p>@Pizzagirl Thanks for your constructive suggestions. Hope others follow your lead.</p>
<p>Condescending comments are no more helpful. </p>
<p>There are around 4000 colleges and universities in the US. If people would stop reading the USNWR and Kaplans college guide as if they were the bible, and we could somehow educate that these ranking systems are not terribly meaningful, that would be a start. This is my personal favorite ranking system. Be sure to refresh it a few times to get my point <a href=“College Ranking Service, A Peerless Evaluation of Colleges, rankyourcollege.com”>http://www.rankyourcollege.com/jggtcmethod.html</a></p>
<p>I have to say that I also don’t see a huge problem in how the most selective schools do admissions. I just don’t think that they are admitting the “wrong” students, by and large. What I see is that they are trying to do a number of different things through admissions, and the process is messy–it probably has to be messy. For example, those who want to improve outreach to lower-SES students have to face all kinds of challenges in doing that. I don’t see any big systemic problem.</p>
<p>Also, those who are unhappy that they didn’t get into the very most selective colleges almost always get into colleges that are almost as selective, and thus don’t really face much harm, if any (unless, of course, they pursued a “Harvard or bust” approach, but that’s their own problem). I’m not aware of any deserving group that’s being pushed multiple tiers down because of any of these admissions policies. I’m simply not going to wring my hands in despair over any kid who has to go to Tufts instead of Harvard–unless the reason is something really unacceptable, like discrimination based on racial or religious onus.</p>
<p>I think that some Asians do feel they are being racially discriminated against. And I think it’s reasonable for them to feel that way.</p>
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<p>Was that directed at me? If so, please point out the offending words, and if merited, I will be happy to apologize.</p>
<p>Getting back to the point that was raised about athletic tips/hooks, even though our family has benefited from the current system, I find it hard to justify. There are different issues involved between the Big D1 powers and the D3 schools-plus-Ivies that do not offer athletic scholarships. </p>
<p>At the D3-Ivy level there are often admissions slots that each coach has available. The candidates must meet basic admissions requirements–see the Ivy Academic Index for example–but then with the coach’s endorsement the slot is filled.</p>
<p>I agree that athletic tips at D3/Ivies is a candidate for reform, even as I understand that athletics builds school pride and that athletic success induces some alumni to reach into their pockets.</p>
<p>If anything, the problem is that there are more deserving students than ever clamoring to get into highly selective universities. And not everyone is locked into the “only an Ivy will do” mindset, as evidenced by admissions data from schools like Vanderbilt and Tufts. The system really does not appear to be broken at all. </p>
<p>While that may be a problem for my own hookless but nonetheless special (to me) D with her good stats but dislike for competition and boringly average family background, it’s not a problem for higher education in America. It’s my job as a mom to help her figure out a way to reach her goals. And after researching and analyzing her options, I’m sure she’ll be able to do that…even without that ever-so-helpful unwed-mother hook I just learned about here. </p>
<p>Spot on, Elliemom. The goal is for a student to identify which schools are socially, academically and financially good fits for them, and then to try to present themselves in their application (and interview, if available) process in a way that is attractive to these schools and makes them desired. To me, the holistic approach, with the essays and personal statements, increases the opportunity for this. The pure numbers driven approach loses the opportunity for individuality. In a numbers approach, the unwed mother and kid whose fa had an affair with a hooker would get lost (well perhaps thats a good thing in the former case).</p>
<p>Its about at this point in these discussions that someone usually brings up the recommendation that schools cut the number inf internationals they accept, especially those looking for FA.</p>
<p>@fenwaypark I’m not a fan of the way that American institutions in general have confounded money-sport athletics and higher education, either. And it’s not just a problem for the Ivies and other top-tier schools; it happens at all levels. I find it bothersome that the NCAA essentially serves as a “minor league” for the NFL and NBA. </p>
<p>I have less problem with athletic “hooks” for sports where amateur status still means something and where the sport is still subordinate to the education. </p>
<p>I am a little surprised that no one has mentioned MOOCs…massive open online courses.</p>
<p>The bottleneck caused by increasing numbers of applicants and a (roughly) fixed amount of bricks and mortar is easily resolved through the use of the internet. Yes, it would threaten the traditional residential college model…or it could complement it. And yes, it would be hard to field a virtual football team.</p>
<p>I think in ten years many colleges will be accepting students and collecting tuition from them even though the students never set foot on what we know today as a traditional college campus. This would resolve the application bottleneck…and if priced right, would fill the coffers of lots of schools to the brim.</p>
<p>In this 50 page thread I don’t think anyone has mentioned this, so I expect this concept might have flaws that I am certain to learn about soon</p>
<p>I think one of the reasons that MOOCs and other online options aren’t discussed often here is that for many (most? all?) students (and families), the college experience goes beyond the educational opportunities. I know it does for D — “vibe”, location, opportunities to continue to participate in favorite ECs, dorm room and food options, even campus architecture all play a role in her assessment of where she wants to go to school. Logically, online learning should probably be a more relevant option, but I’m not sure that most 17 year olds (or their parents) approach this process logically. (I know logic sometimes has very little to do with it in our household.) </p>
<p>
This has, of course, been discussed at great length elsewhere, and discussing it here in depth would risk getting this thread closed or combined with a giant thread on that topic. I’ll just say what I’ve said elsewhere–it’s possible, and worth examining, but there is no smoking gun for any selective college, and some demographic reasons that can explain results without racial discrimination. In particular, I have never seen any evidence at all of discrimination based on racial animus against Asians (in the past, there was such evidence with respect to discrimination against Jews).</p>
<p>I think in ten years’ time, the following line which we have all seen or heard, will seem really quaint and old-fashioned, “We would have liked to accept more qualified students, but we didn’t have enough beds.”</p>
<p>Californiaaa, you still out there? Let’s say when your child is applying, dream school says she is qualified but they don’t have enough beds so she can’t come to campus…but she could earn a full dream school diploma by taking the online program they have just instituted. (And you save money for room and board.) </p>
<p>Would you be a taker?</p>
<p>Are there really people so Harvard/Stanford-crazy that they would prefer to go to Harvard online rather than a (slightly) less prestigious college in person? Maybe there are.</p>
<p>I think what’s really amazing–although not crazy–is that virtually every smart, accomplished high school student graduating in the United States can get a very, very good college education at a price he or she can afford. And even more amazing–every single kid who is a plausible candidate for Harvard or Stanford can get an excellent college education at a number of colleges absolutely free!</p>
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<p>However, in order to keep their colleges marketable to prospective students and donating alumni who may prefer a white-plurality college over one with “too few” white students, it is at least possible that some colleges are applying such factors in admissions. Given the opinions commonly thrown about these forums, it appears that some people are uncomfortable with the idea of a college where the plurality racial/ethnic group is neither white nor their own.</p>
<p>Such a motive does not mean that it is actually being done, of course, but it would not be surprising if there exists a college (not necessarily all or most colleges) where this became a factor in admission policy.</p>
<p>It is possible, but again, there is no smoking gun at any college. We do pretty much know that colleges ensure that the gender balance remains approximately equal. They don’t do this because anybody dislikes men, or dislikes women (depending on which way it goes for the particular college), but because both men and women prefer gender balance. So it is certainly possible that colleges prefer that the student body roughly reflect the national ethnic makeup. But they don’t say they do this, and nobody has produced any clear evidence that they do–aside for statistical evidence which, in my opinion, anyway, is insufficient to clearly show it.</p>
<p>@jym626 said:
</p>
<p>jym626, I checked out your link and thought it was great! The only problem I saw was that Harvard never showed up in the 5 or so times I clicked, and Stanford only once. Horror of horrors! Something has definitely got to be wrong with it, but some of the “crazy parents” might want to consider Wake Forest as it showed up as #1 for one pass, and Vanderbilt was definitely in the top 10!</p>
<p>^^^
You made me look! :)) I’m still laughing. Great link, @jym626</p>