Why have parents gone crazy in the last 10 years?

Parents Forum
741

<p>Maybe it has something to do with the fact that the average cost of tuition has almost doubled for public universities in the last ten years while the national average income has dropped. The economy has been down making the job market tough for kids WITH college degrees let alone without them. </p>

<p>Love them or hate them, those elite schools tend to have excellent financial aid and so getting into them can be a huge relief to a family who isn’t close to being full-pay but makes too much to get help with in-state publics. It may be worth a year of crazy to get into a “100 percent needs” school. Public institutions aren’t always less money once you factor in aid and these days, for some areas, even a chance your good student won’t get into the commuter school. Community college can be a great option but the statistics on kids actually transferring into a 4 year and finishing their bachelors aren’t great. Transfer rates are tightening and some state schools starting to drop their transfer guarantees.</p>

<p>There will always be some that NEED to feel their kids are better than others but for the most part, I think most parents are just worried. Afraid that they can’t pay for college. Afraid that without a degree, their kid can get any sort of administrative job (which, in our area, requires degrees because they can.) Looking for any sort of edge that will allow their kid to manage a difficult world.</p>

<p>I’m not saying it’s right or that the behavior of some parents isn’t unacceptable. I’m just saying that it’s a different world than it was 10-years-ago and so why wouldn’t we see a shift in attitudes about school. Personally, we didn’t have the elite or nothing attitude but I can’t say I haven’t spent a year obsessively researching schools that we could afford and still give D the type of education she wanted.</p>

742

<p>"However, in order to keep their colleges marketable to prospective students and donating alumni who may prefer a white-plurality college over one with “too few” white students, it is at least possible that some colleges are applying such factors in admissions. "</p>

<p>If you’re going to charge that somewhere exists some Richie Rich who has threated his alma mater that if they let in “too many non-whites” he’s going to close his wallet (and so alma mater dutifully complies because nothing would be worse than losing Richie Rich’s donation), I think you’d better have something a little stronger than a hypothetical in mind. Do you have ANY real evidence of this kind of thing? </p>

<p>I also note with the amusement that the same people who are quick to accuse others of “not wanting schools that have too many non-whites” in them haven’t seemed to gravitate towards the historically-black colleges, which often offer scholarships to good students to entice them. </p>

743

<p>Our daily dose of parental crazy:</p>

<p><a href=“Parents’ Suit Against Md. Private School Dismissed – NBC4 Washington”>Parents’ Suit Against Md. Private School Dismissed – NBC4 Washington;

<p>The parents sued the school for giving their son a D in Honors Biology and not offering enough help, thus jeopardizing the boy’s college carreer.</p>

<p>Sigh.</p>

744

<p>I haven’t looked at the stats so don’t flame me but my guess is that a talented Asian kid would find being Asian a tip factor at Carlton, Beloit, Macalester, Rhodes, Grinnell, etc. If any of those schools were in New England or California they’d be considered peers of Amherst/Williams/Pomona. But they are not. So a savvy Asian kid who thinks that he’ll be discriminated against at Williams (and I’m not saying he will be) can apply to one of these. Parents can help stop the frenzy by being a little imaginative when it comes to geography. A kid in suburban Boston needs to appreciate that the New England LAC’s don’t want to enroll the entire top chunk of Brookline, Newton (North or South), Dover, Needham, Belmont and Concord High Schools.</p>

745

<p>Re parental craziness - The main thing I gather is there is more than one way to accomplish the college task with one’s kids. Some choose a more time consuming path than others and some are minimalist. If executed properly, it is possible for kids to get to the school they like / want and on their way. Well, that was our goal, and we will get there easy with two.</p>

<p>I see many CC parents get there as well, just differently than we would ever do. It is interesting to read the different ways, and I am sure readers benefit from having choices in how to accomplish such an important task. CC gave us lots of ideas that we initially did not think of, so we were a set of those lurkers who benefited from others explaining what they did. We simply took many pieces and improvised our own path to suit us.</p>

746

<p>There’s a thread called Race in College Admissions- that is where these “deep” discussions of Asian American vs URM are often referred. It’s the place for some theorists to vent.</p>

<p>Also offering this, don’t care what anyone thinks of Duke, it is informative I think someone recently alluded to it:
<a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/parents-forum/1632160-christoph-guttentag-s-letter-demystifying-admission-process-at-duke.html#latest”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/parents-forum/1632160-christoph-guttentag-s-letter-demystifying-admission-process-at-duke.html#latest&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>You all know your kids and some others. Now ponder what it means for 42,000 “someone’s wonderful kids” to apply to Stanford Or 35,000 to apply to Harvard. Dang, there is culling! You didn’t realize? </p>

747

<p>Awc, quite frankly, all these good kids (except perhaps the outright dreamers who don’t get through first cut,) go through the same ring of fire- multiple reads by a team of people who know the U, what it wants, know what bright kids are (or should be) capable of. Some of what the top schools “need” IS conformity. Obviously, you want them to go to class, do the work, mind some social conventions, follow basic procedure in labs, graduate on some plan, etc. And have a good time.</p>

<p>Many kids think raw non-conformity attests to their intellectual strengths. “I’m not the herd.” Or, “I’m not your average applicant.” But by itself, it doesn’t. It can be attractive in a very personal context (say, at home. There are many ways I personally buck the system and I’m sure many of us do.) But to an adcom, the reasoning needs to be there, it needs to be expressed well and make sense, overall, to your college admissions review. After all, you are trying to show adcoms you do think, can make sense, on that college’s level. That you’re not the Lone Ranger, outlier or even oddball. It can be, eg, totally irrelevant to an adcom that your kids didn’t take the AP tests to increase family time. </p>

<p>Your net-net is that there was enough great in your kids’ apps that the colleges offered them admits. Enough that said, these will fit and thrive and contribute to the whole here, in and out of classes. Perhaps that’s what you want to share with others. That despite bucking some conventions, they did this and this, beyond stats/rigor and a few hs activities they did want. that they were able to create an overall strong impression, despite some non-ordinary choices.</p>

<p>But, so many don’t know what a “strong impression” is. They go off about being Big Dawg in the local hs, not getting sleep, long lists of ECs, some politician’s LoR, skin color or hardships. </p>

748

<p>I don’t really think that attitude has just sprung up in the last 10 years. It’s always been around but the internet and places such as College Confidential make it much more visible. </p>

749

<p>My theory is that the most successful (unhooked) applicants are those who can be described in a short phrase that sounds impressive. It might be short, “Is that the kid who was on From the Top on tuba?”, or it might be a bit longer-“Is that the kid from Idaho who scored 2400 and led a 1000-mile cattle drive?”</p>

750

<p>The combination of all of these factors in the past 10 years have contributed to the witches brew of parental hysteria:</p>

<p>1] there are about the same number of openings for freshman as there were 20 years ago .
2] more and more parents realize that their children NEED TO GO to college than ever before.
Going only to HS today probably wont enable their children to lead an economically comfortable life .
3] The cost of going to college is at least 5-10 times more expensive than it was when today’s parents were teenagers. That leaves millions of middle class parents trying to figure out HOW TO PAY for something that their kids need, since there is no way they can afford to pay 30-60$$ per year to send their child to college
4] Only the most wealthy colleges can afford to offer FA that makes college a financial possibility.
That pushes more and more students to apply to those wealthiest colleges and U’s, which in many cases also happen to be among the “top” colleges in the US.
5] Many other U’s offer Merit $ to top stat students, which puts them on the radar of less well off parents, and pushes many to make sure their kids do as well as possible on standardized tests.
6] the internet and the common app now make it easy for parents and students to learn about and apply to many more colleges than ever before, thus driving up the number of applicants at well known colleges and making the odds of acceptance fall further and further.<br>
7] Add the huge increase of statistically qualified, wealthy International applicants from countries with huge populations[ Chiba, India, et al] vying for the same spots </p>

<p>and viola’</p>

<p>we have completely understandable anxiety and hysteria about the college application process among many parents. </p>

<p>I wish I had a solution. :frowning: :frowning: :frowning: </p>

<p>I personally am very relieved that we dont have to go through this process today. </p>

751

<p>^ Oh no! Now kids from Chiba are applying to US schools too? (ha ha)
Excellent summary.</p>

752

<p>@menloparkmom - Good list.</p>

<p>One thing I would add to the list is government guaranteeing of student loans. This allowed colleges to raise rates way beyond inflation with abandon because someone else guaranteed the payment to the school, not the actual consumer. Without such a loan guarantee, everything you mentioned would have taken place, except for the 5 -10 times rise in the cost of attendence simply because no one would have paid such annual increases.</p>

<p>Higher prices are what naturally occur when the purchaser of a product is not on the hook for the payment to the producer, yet the payment is assured. It is an artificially inflated market.</p>

753

<p>BTW “That leaves millions of middle class parents trying to figure out HOW TO PAY for something that their kids need, since there is no way they can afford to pay 30-60$$ per year to send their child to college”</p>

<p>It your child marries in HS, she classifiers for FASFA, regardless of parental income. I don not advocate for phony marriages. On the other hand, if HS student has a sweetheart … why can’t she use this opportunity to save substantial amount of money? (I am not a ■■■■■. I married early myself). </p>

754

<p>

</p>

<p>While the evidence is insufficient to prove that such discrimination exists, it is also insufficient to prove that it does not exist, which means that people can argue about it inconclusively forever.</p>

<p>Of course, there are also to other things to consider:</p>

<ul>
<li>Whether it exists at one college does not necessarily mean the same thing at another college.</li>
<li>There could also be unintended-at-the-top-level types of discrimination being applied, perhaps unconsciously, by admission readers in the absence of (or even opposition to) policy made by the admissions directors.</li>
<li>Colleges targeting particular ethnic makeups may not necessarily be targeting the national ethnic makeup. Indeed, for marketing purposes mentioned above, it is more likely that they want “enough” of each major racial/ethnic group (though their definitions of “enough” may vary by college and racial/ethnic group), but maintain a white plurality, while being somewhat flexible otherwise.</li>
<li>Such “class crafting” is likely a luxury that is only effectively doable by colleges at the higher levels of selectivity, when the applicant pool is strong enough that, even if they do actively discriminate in admissions for these purposes (or other “class crafting” purposes), it is not too obvious statistically, so it can give them plausible deniability.</li>
</ul>

755

<p>Walking away from the computer…</p>

756

<p>Right behind you, EllieMom!</p>

757

<p>

</p>

<p>If the posts around these forums are of any indication, a school that is not plurality white tends to be viewed less favorably than a similar school that is plurality white. For example, there was a recent post in another forum section where a parent complained that her URM kid stuck out among all of the Asian students at a UC, but wrote that the kid chose a college in a region where the likely colleges that a UC-admitted student would consider all had a lower URM percentage, but were majority white. Of course, as you appear to be aware of below, HBUs tend to be widely disdained by non-black parents and students posting here. CSULA, a predominantly Latino school, seems to be held in lower regard than other CSUs, even less selective ones.</p>

<p>

</p>

<p>I do suggest HBUs out of the well known merit scholarship lists to students (regardless of race) who need merit money and otherwise have a plausible fit (based on academic interests and stats for the merit scholarships). But the reaction when the student is non-black is often less-than-friendly (and not necessarily from the student, but from other posters who appear to have a low opinion of HBUs because they are HBUs).</p>

758

<p>I was also thinking that the “craziness” may not really affect all that many people. I was looking at the Forbes list of top colleges (not because it’s the best rating system, but because it shows some interesting info clearly). Even this question of potential bias against Asians is clearly only relevant at a few schools–after you get out of the top few (which pretty much all have around 15-16% Asians), the number of Asian kids drops down to levels that probably suggest lack of more interest than limits on their numbers. Numbers of Asians are higher at a few schools–and it’s usually pretty clear to see why (i.e., schools in areas where a lot of Asians live, or STEM-heavy schools). So whatever the cause of the craziness is, I don’t think it’s all that many people–it’s just that the people in question are trying to squeeze through a very narrow funnel.</p>

759

<p>“I do suggest HBUs out of the well known merit scholarship lists to students (regardless of race) who need merit money and otherwise have a plausible fit (based on academic interests and stats for the merit scholarships). But the reaction when the student is non-black is often less-than-friendly (and not necessarily from the student, but from other posters who appear to have a low opinion of HBUs because they are HBUs).”</p>

<p>If you were the head of a HBU and you had determined that you needed to widen your base beyond African-Americans to continue whatever upward trajectory you had planned, and you decided to do an outreach to whites / Hispanics / Asians / whatever, would that be racist against African-Americans? If you were in those shoes, and now you have the chance to admit a really-super African American or a really-super white student, and you decide to admit the white student because you’re trying to build a base of enough white students such that white students will consider your school, is that racist or not? </p>

<p>If Brandeis is deciding between yet-another-Jewish student and a non-Jewish student of equal qualification, and they want to ensure that non-Jews still feel welcome / at home on their campus so they aren’t pigeonholed as “too Jewish,” is that ok for them to use that criteria, all else being equal? How about twist it around to Catholic and make it Notre Dame? </p>

<p>I’m just posing hypotheticals here, but I don’t see what’s so wrong about a college wanting to ensure “baseline levels” of different kinds of groups so that they can then attract better students in those types of groups. No one wants to be the only white, or the only Asian, or the only black, or the only Jew, or whatever, on a campus.</p>

760

<p>"It your child marries in HS, she classifiers for FASFA, regardless of parental income. I don not advocate for phony marriages. On the other hand, if HS student has a sweetheart … why can’t she use this opportunity to save substantial amount of money? "</p>

<p>Because that would be morally wrong, and some people actually consider moral values, not just what’s-in-it-for-me. </p>