<p>You've hit on it edad--when it is no longer fun, they need to take a deep breath, step back, and reevaluate. Sleep seems to be the first thing a student will give up--I know I've been lecturing my soph. in college son--he gets his exercise in every day and is religious about diet, but with crunch time right now the sleep hours have been cut to about 4 a night. I keep telling him that it will effect concentration so the extra study time is really "lost".</p>
<p>My other point, which I think is even more important, is to be careful about what you wish for. Lots of HS kids push themselves sometimes because they want to be accepted into a challenging reach college. Challenging means not easy. Challenging can mean working hard to get C grades. Some kids thrive on that pressure, some do not. It is often better to be in a more relaxed environment with a more reasonable pace and to be able to explore different areas outside of one's strengths.</p>
<p>To support your other point, I have a friend whose son was accepted into a top U.--one that many kids sweat over trying to get into. He was also accepted at a lower (medium?) tier state school (with good scholarship). He turned down the much more prestigious school and went to the school where many students end up that are turned down at "higher" schools. This student has excelled beyond belief--of course great gpa, but much more importantly has received national recognition in academic areas and EC's. He has had time to explore passions such as rock climbing, snow boarding, travel abroad during breaks, volunteering, organizing clubs on campus, etc. If he had been stressed and pressured in his academics, I don't think he would have had the time or energy to do all that he has accomplished. I am so proud of him, as he took much flack from all those around him for not taking the prestigious route.</p>
<p>
[quote]
It is time to slow down when it is no longer fun and becomes overly stressful.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>When was it ever fun? </p>
<p>Neither of my kids (one who decided early in high school not to play the game and deliberately chose to aim no higher than the state university, and one who aimed for the top and came pretty close) ever considered all the rigamarole "fun."</p>
<p>In my original post I didn't try to say it was fun:</p>
<p>"I'm not convinced that the admissions processes needs to stress kids out, but it does push them to grow up, (in a good way) and that's not always easy! It really is a rite of passage, and rites of passage are difficult but beneficial."</p>
<p>The point was that you need to do these things anyway to grow up and be
a contributing member of society. And if you view it that way instead of viewing it as "doing it to get into college" then it is less stressful and more of a meaningful challenge.</p>
<p>Also, all stress is not bad. We have all had points when we pushed ourselves professionally, and we all have been tired and stressed as a parents. We do these things because we are grown-ups and the tasks are meaningful. Hopefully we have the maturity to self-regulate and know to keep exercising, monitor our sleep (although those infant years are a killer), and to keep up our social lives. </p>
<p>I believe it is beneficial for my boys to have the experience of pushing themselves and then recovering, of juggling and trying to judge how much is too much while they are still at home. If they are doing this to test their limits for themselves, and not just to impress some abstract admissions person, then I approve.</p>
<p>also:</p>
<p>Skill #4 was: knowing how to not feel trapped. -- so important --</p>
<p>"The point was that you need to do these things anyway to grow up and be
a contributing member of society. And if you view it that way instead of viewing it as "doing it to get into college" then it is less stressful and more of a meaningful challenge."</p>
<p>I fully agree. </p>
<p>I also agree that having some stress isn't a bad thing. Stress is a part of being human. High school is a good time to learn how to cope with stress, and how to live your life so that the level of stress that you have is manageable.</p>
<p>In our family the college admissions process had been relatively painless an extremely successful so far -- two kids happily attending their first choice super-selective schools. But I am very aware that, as much as they "deserved" to be accepted to those schools, they were also lucky to have it work out the way it did. </p>
<p>geomom,
I don't know if you are familiar with the saga of Andison. It turned out to be a story with a happy ending, seemingly affirming your statement that "it really is a rite of passage, and rites of passage are difficult but beneficial". But I would not wish this kind of beneficial pass on mine or anybody else's children. Not everyone is strong enough to emerge from this kind of ordeal as a winner. Some can end up with a broken spirit...</p>
<p>"Rigamarole"</p>
<p>Like the stress of a college interview for a kid with few ideas about college or what they want or how they will fit in.</p>
<p>Like a kid who spends some time learning about colleges and starts to think about different career possibilities.</p>
<p>Like a kid who lists activities and accomplishments and then writes some amazing essays.</p>
<p>Like a kid who goes on more college visits and interviews and can ask intelligent questions and has some understanding of what they want and how they will use the opportunties to learn and grow.</p>
<p>I think the process can be something to look forward to. It may not qualify as fun, but it is certainly valuable.</p>
<p>By "rigamarole," I meant things like this:</p>
<p>My daughter plays two musical instruments and has been heavily involved in musical activities since elementary school. She is pretty good on her principal instrument -- by which I mean she has qualified for All-State twice -- and she plays with various outside musical ensembles as well as school ensembles.</p>
<p>But she doesn't really like it anymore. </p>
<p>If not for the college admissions process, she would have ditched the music a couple of years ago, thereby giving herself time to explore other interests. But because of the college admissions process, she realized that she needed to keep the music going. It was the only extracurricular activity in which she could demonstrate a deep commitment and substantial accomplishments. If she dropped out of music and took up other activities, she would be starting them as a beginner and would not be able to accomplish anything of significance before the time came to fill out college applications.</p>
<p>In terms of personal development, I think she would have been better off dropping the music and doing other things. The college admissions process, however, led her to take a different path.</p>
<p>The college admissions process is designed to match kids with colleges. If it happens to have a positive effect on personal development, that's great. But fostering personal development is not its goal. In some instances, such as the one I mention here, the process may even be detrimental to a particular kid's best interests.</p>
<p>Marian, that stinks. I feel bad for you daughter. I hope feeling like she had to keep up with the music didn't turn a need for a break from it into a deep dislike.</p>
<p>Did college admissions turn out well?</p>
<p>Also - wow - qualifying for all-state twice is impressive.</p>
<p>Marian,
She doesn't need to continue with the musical instruments. She'd be far better off finding activities that she genuiinely enjoys, and then putting her passion and time into that. Doing so would benefit her personal development and also would be far more likely to impress colleges.</p>
<p>When it comes to the very top colleges -- which are really the only ones that weigh ECs that much in admissions decisions -- there are thousands of kids who have played musical instruments for years, and also make All State. Such activities don't make students stand out for top colleges.</p>
<p>Most other colleges -- public and private -- make admissions decisions on stats only. ECs may count for merit aid. It's only the very top colleges -- places like HPYS -- that weigh ECs heavily, and that's because they have such an overabundance of high stat applicants that those colleges can afford to make admissions decisions based on who would best contribute to creating a well rounded class.</p>
<p>My S started a new activity the summer before senior year, and it changed his life. As a result of being in it, he also got a major award from our county. S didn't apply to very top colleges (S is a kid with high scores, low grades), but if he had had the grades to apply, I believe he would have had higher than average chances of getting in to a top college because his EC was clearly driven by his passion; he excelled in it, and it was unusual.</p>
<p>However, what's most important is that S got some skills and awareness of his strengths and interests that will serve him well for a lifetime regardless of what college he goes to. What is most important for our kids is the personal development aspect of high school. What's also interesting to me is that the smart students who keep their grades up while pursuing EC paths that interest them are exactly the type of students that the top colleges are looking for.</p>
<p>They are not looking for students who jumped through hoops to impress top colleges. They want students who excel while marching to their own drummers.</p>
<p>I am an Ivy alum, and also have done a lot of interviewing for my alma mater. I know from personal experience that the students at Ivies are ones who did follow their personal passions.You can tell this because if you look at the campus ECs at Ivies, you'll find that there are hundreds of very active, student-operated clubs that are across the spectrum of activities. Students do those things out of love: not because anyone is forcing them to do them.</p>
<p>Approximately 25% of HS students play a musical instrument. Hundreds of thousands, take outside lessons and develop at least a reasonable level of proficiency. Tens of thousands qualify for all-State or have a demonstrated equivalent level of skill. I believe my State (NY) has close to 1000 who are awarded all-State and there are many kids with strong skills who do not compete. It should be no surprise that many of these kids who are skilled in music are also strong in academics and many apply for Ivy or other elite colleges. The value, for college admissions, of even very strong music skills is often grossly overestimated. Music is very valuable for helping kids develop focus, self discipline and group skills, but I doubt there would be much value for a kid who disliked music and felt forced into it.</p>
<p>Also, go back to the OP's life-skill #4 Learning how to not feel trapped.
You are letting your daughter feel like there is no way out. That's no way to live life.</p>
<p>If you don't let her practice making choices about what SHE really wants right now, she may do something dumb later (like going through with the wedding because everyone expects her to).</p>
<p>Thanks for the feedback, everyone. My daughter is a high school senior who was admitted to her first choice college ED and is pleased with where she's going. But I suspect she won't be auditioning for the wind ensemble when she gets there. </p>
<p>She's the one who chose to stick with music all the way to the end of high school; it was not my choice. She realized that without music, there would be a big hole in her resume where ECs are supposed to be. It was the only EC where she had ever made a serious effort. Unlike Northstarmom's son, she didn't have a passion for something else with which to fill the hole in her resume. She could have joined some randomly selected clubs and activities, of course. But I don't think it would have amounted to much. None of the non-musical activities that she has tried have ever amounted to much. We will never know whether her EC choices had an impact on the college admissions process; perhaps they did not. </p>
<p>In any case, the overall outcome was good. I just wanted to point out an instance where thinking about the college admissions process prompted a student to make choices that she might not otherwise have made and that might not have been ideal in terms of personal development.</p>
<p>Of course, this is certainly not the first time that a kid has taken the college admissions process into account when making decisions. I did it myself, thirtysomething years ago. I desperately wanted to learn to type, and my high school offered a typing course. But the course was graded on speed, and I am a klutz. If I took the course, I could not possibly have earned an A. I knew that taking typing would cost me my biggest selling point in the college admissions process -- I was on track to be valedictorian, but if I got a B or C in typing, my class rank would drop to 2nd or 3rd. So I never took the course. I suspect kids are still making choices like mine today.</p>
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Many teenagers seem to have plenty of disposable income and nice expensive electronic toys.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Ack! What does that have to do with being a kid? (Mine had little of either.)</p>
<p>
[quote]
In my original post I didn't try to say it was fun:</p>
<p>"I'm not convinced that the admissions processes needs to stress kids out, but it does push them to grow up, (in a good way) and that's not always easy! It really is a rite of passage, and rites of passage are difficult but beneficial."</p>
<p>The point was that you need to do these things anyway to grow up and be
a contributing member of society. And if you view it that way instead of viewing it as "doing it to get into college" then it is less stressful and more of a meaningful challenge.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>CAn't agree with that either....they're going to grow up anyway...I wanted mine to know that enjoying life now is as important as later. I didn't want their childhood to be a challenge; i wanted it to be an experience. (they only get one.)</p>
<p>Yes, they were stressed sometimes. They both did well enough in HS and testing to get to where they wanted to be in school and into the colleges they wanted to go to, but they minimized the work of that, unless they saw intrinsic value in what they were doing.</p>
<p>I think they learned more from sitting on hillsides at night, looking for shooting stars, then all the leadership activities and test prepping in the world.</p>
<p>Life is an experience, not a goal.</p>
<p>" So I never took the course. I suspect kids are still making choices like mine today."</p>
<p>People make those kind of choices all of the time, in all sorts of situations. Some people live life to mold themselves to fit into some kind of category. For instance, I know several middle aged and older adults who chose their careers solely based on what their parents said would be lucrative even though those people enjoyed doing very different things.</p>
<p>Some people allow their own unique selves to flourish, darn the consequences. Some such people become very successful. Some end up very dysfunctional and on the margins of society.</p>
<p>Most of us do a bit of both: shaping ourselves to meet certain goals; following our blisses and then finding a place where we fit in.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Life is an experience, not a goal.
[/quote]
I like that garland--think I'll have it put on a coffee mug for my son who tends to get all wrapped up in what he needs to do and forgets to enjoy where he is.</p>
<p>Garland: I think life being an experience or a goal do not have to be mutually exclusive things. I think it is about balance. What is "being a kid"? We chose to live in a place where life is "easy". What I mean is that motivated kids can work hard to achieve academic goals they have but also have time to ski, mountain bike, easily attend arts functions, go to the hills to watch sunsets,attend shakespeare plays, or salsa dance(all with in a few minutes from home) -- in short they can develop themselves intellectually and otherwise to their potential and still enjoy life. Both S and D are goal oriented . They moved way ahead in subjects but they also pursued musical things because that is what they liked. S tied many of the volunteer things he did to those that area. D formed a string quartet and was in two orchestras because she liked it, not to make all state or anything (and has continued in music as a non major). She loves kids and did volunteer and communitiy service with children since she was young. S liked to compete in music performance, sports, and school and but liked being around people as much so he accompanies. Were there times taking AP's as early as 8th grade was stressfull? Yep. Would they want it have changed it ? Nope. Has son enjoyed every dance and proms (sometimes more than one per year)? Yep. Did all the things they did help them get inot good colleges? I suppose.
I think there is plenty of time for a kid to work hard and dream of the top college and still be him/her self and enjoy growing up. Well .. at least it seemed to work for our kids. D only applied to one school so it was not stressful. S, well he wanted to do it differently and did have a stressfull fall filling in all the forms.... but he survived and has just been playing at a senior citizens home before going to an AP review then off to prom. He is smiling a lot so the stresses of the past several months(or years) have not been too bad. </p>
<p>He and D have had a lot of "experiences" working toward their goals.</p>