<p>Point taken.</p>
<p>Regardless, the attacks on NU's greek system are still completely uncalled for.</p>
<p>If you're rushing and have to let the leaders of the group know you're gay because of problems that might come up later, I'd consider that group homophobic. And I was referring to your house, not the national organization.</p>
<p>Wow, you are ridiculous. It's like you aren't even reading what he is saying; you are just taking bits and pieces in order to justify your own misconceptions.</p>
<p>I think you misunderstood what CerebralAssassin was saying, sanjenferrer. What he said was that there <em>may</em> be some houses that have homophobic members and it may be a good idea for someone who's gay to "talk to the chapter president, rush chair, etc. to make sure it isn't an issue". There are homophobes everywhere, including Greek organizations. I don't think they screen out homophobes, just like my company would never ask anyone what his/her stance about gays is even my company has a strict policy about not discriminating people based on sexual orientation.</p>
<p>Obviously, the rush chair/chapter president would know about the members and the culture of his house (e.g. if <em>some</em> members make jokes about gays...); I don't know anything about Greeks and if any would have a non-discriminatory policy but it's something worth taking a look during the rush regardless what they say their stance is on paper. It's true that there's a stereotype that Greeks may tend to be more homophobic, just like in professional sports. But from what I read, Northwestern greeks are not the stereotypical ones.</p>
<p>This reminds me of one of my gay friends who got an offer from the largest law firm in Indianapolis. Before he took the offer, he specificly asked one of the partners if his sexual orientation would be an issue at all. This is a legitimate concern. Fortunately, my friend was assured it would not be a problem at all. I think CerebralAssassin is giving a smart advice.</p>
<p>I'd like to think that nowadays that most Greeks at NU wouldn't have problems w/ members who are homosexuals.</p>
<p>Nonetheless, there are likely to be some homophobes (just as in the rest of society) and some of the banter is typical that one finds in a lockerroom (i.e. - "don't be such a f*g") which will likely make members who aren't out uncomfortable.</p>
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Also, being part of a Greek organization requires more conformity than just a regular club, so a member's individuality is inevitably more stifled. I'm just not willing to conform to that degree.
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<p>Oh, please - no more than social cliques in the general student body (plus, each house is made up of various cliques).</p>
<p>If you were black and felt compelled to talk to leaders to make sure your being black is OK won't be a problem, doesn't that suggest that the organization has some ways to go before being prejudice-free? Why do you even have to ask in the first place? Shouldn't it be a given that the group is not prejudiced? Would you have needed to ask if you were white? same thing for women joining a predominantly male organization like Engineering Club or something. I understand that people at the top schools are more tolerant than most, but that doesn't mean they're not homophobic.</p>
<p>I mean... that's people, that's society, it's not the Greek system, which this thread is about. Isn't CerebralAssassin's direct story about rushing with a gay person enough to answer your question? And Sam Lee's story about the guy asking at his job is the same situation- it's just a precaution.</p>
<p>You won't know everyone in a house before you rush it, or you might not know a house too well in general... asking a rush chair "is this the kind of place I would fit in"-- because you're gay, because you're short, because you're funny, ANYTHING-- is a completely valid question and one everyone should consider before rushing. But I feel like this is a moot point because clearly you are not interested in rushing, or being persuaded in your beliefs.</p>
<p>You have changed the terms of your argument so many times that I'm having trouble keeping track of to what extent you can bash the greek system, or my house, and get away with it.
The greek system is not prejudice-free. But, if you let me, I'd like to tell you a little secret: nowhere is prejudice-free. It's different in the greek system because you are living with these people. Being in a fraternity is more of a time-commitment than any other "club" on campus, because you are bound to its meal plans, live-in requirements, and pay into multiple social and philanthropic activities. If you become a tour guide, join College Dems, or take a course, you probably won't bother checking into any possible prejudices. These commitments are not too time-intensive and don't result in a lot of interpersonal connections. At club meetings, there is a focus on doing what needs to be accomplished. In a greek house, most of the time spent in the house is chit-chatting over lunch and dinner, watching tv in the common room, and other generic activities. The point of the greek system is to become friends with the other members. Even more than friends, brothers or sisters. The system fails if there is anything (sexual orientation, race, personality conflicts, apathy) that impedes the ability to become close with other members.
I probably wasted a few minutes of my time trying to explain the greek system to a non-greek and trying to explain my point to someone who clearly doesn't want to hear, or read, a different point of view.</p>
<p>sanjenferrer,</p>
<p>I think I understand where you are coming from but you forgot one thing: the reason why one wants to take the precaution is that the house is where he is going live with other members. actually one may want to take similar precaution upon hunting for shared apartment. there are homophobic people roaming around all over different places but you don't need to do anything about that in most places because you don't need to interact with them closely for a long period of time.</p>
<p>Cerebral, I didn't change my stance at all. In fact, I just repeated myself, illustrating my point using similar examples. I agree that the Greek-system is not prejudice-free just as society isn't, but that's exactly why I'm saying it needs to change. </p>
<p>So, just to clarify things once and for all. Is your house homophobic? How many homophobic persons does it have? Is it one of the houses you consider "more tolerant than others"?</p>
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</p>
<p>Sam Lee, good point. However, if the house isn't homophobic, the members shouldn't take issue with living with a gay guy either, and if its tolerance is known, the gay guy entering wouldn't feel the need to ask.</p>
<p>So lets be clear here: You're criticizing the Greek system for not living up to a standard which you set for it, which you admit is higher than the rest of society?</p>
<p>My expectations for a Greek system is not higher than that for the rest of society. I want both to be prejudice-free. I'm criticizing Greek houses that are homophobic, but my bias against the Greek system isn't just because of that (I mentioned conformity issues before).</p>
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Sam Lee, good point. However, if the house isn't homophobic, the members shouldn't take issue with living with a gay guy either
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my bias against the Greek system isn't just because of that (I mentioned conformity issues before).
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<p>Again, you use preconceived notions to judge the situation. Joining a house does not erase one's personality or mold one entirely to fit into the house. I would hope (and it has been my experience) that houses choose brothers who make the house what it is, not who they can change based on what the HOUSE is. It's pretty easy not to compromise your values/beliefs/personality when going Greek... just don't. But a house does not equal its brothers; brothers equal a house.</p>
<p>So it doesn't make sense to say "if a house isn't homophobic its brothers shouldn't care," because it's not like everyone joins a house and it's like "okay, this house is nonhomophobic and athletic, so everyone make sure to be both of those things." There might be a homophobe in a house people wouldn't expect one to be in, and there might be none in a house you might expect to find some in. Just like you don't always know who is a homophobe in your office, or in your class, or society in general. That's why AGAIN, the point is that it can't hurt to clear the air first to try and gauge where one would best fit in- but that doesn't mean one WON'T fit in because of some stupid stereotype or prejudice.</p>
<p>But it doesn't matter, because you aren't rushing, because apparently the Greek system will either try to burn you at the stake for your beliefs or force you to change completely in order to fit in. <em>cough</em></p>
<p>I apologize if I haven't been clear before: my house is not homophobic. The term "homophobia" has a very literal definition (fear of homosexuals), and I don't think anyone in the house fills that description. Are there people who probably would prefer their brothers be heterosexuals? Yea, probably. As I've said, I went through the rush process, education period, and initiation with open homosexuals. I'm friends with gays both in and outside of Greek Life. I'd like to think of my house as being more tolerant and "gay-friendly" than most houses, though at NU nearly all houses are pretty diverse.
Sanjen, your attempt to de-homophobe the Greek system is admirable. You don't like homophobes and that's fine. As DFleish pointed out, brothers make a house, not the other way around. People can change the culture of the brotherhood if they bring a new idea/vision and the other brothers buy into it. Nowhere in my fraternity's charter, creed, or ritual does it say that we must be the nerdy/jocky/gay-friendly/rapist fraternity. It's a conscious or subconscious decision made by the brothers.
You can't say that you dislike the Greek system because it is like the rest of society, because there is no net change in the Greek system over society.
The conformity argument is null because conformity isn't preached in the Greek system as I mentioned earlier.
To be sure: I'm not saying you have to like the Greek system. There are myriad reasons to dislike NU's Greek system, but homophobia and conformity are simply not two of them.
Sanjen, I mainly take issue with your decision to completely bash a lifestyle choice that others have chosen despite knowing very little about it. Ironically, you despise the Greek system for doing the exact same thing. Curious, no?</p>
<p>What is the lifestyle choice? Oh boy, this gets interesting.</p>
<p>Also, males act and think differently when around each other. You can't tell me males in a fraternity house are just like males in the rest of society. The simple choice to join a fraternity is just one of the things that make them different. </p>
<p>Membership in a fraternity helps shape one's identity. You subconsciously tell yourself "I'm a frat brother," and that in itself changes your mindset and actions, even if just slightly.</p>
<p>You answered your own question. Though I suppose you're opposing his assertion that homosexuality is a choice vs. something inborn?</p>
<p>That was not the question I was referring to. He was clearly suggesting that homosexuality is a "lifestyle choice." I feel like I'm on the Notre Dame board.</p>
<p>Homosexuality is genetically influenced. Just as people have predisposition for alcoholism, people have a predisposition towards homosexuality. It's then up to the environment to trigger that predisposition or not, and to what extent (influencing where one falls on the sexual preference spectrum).</p>
<p>Oh, "homophobia"/heterosexism is not a literal definition. It's not just "fear of homosexuals" but also prejudice towards them.</p>
<p>Semantics and politics aside, does it really matter for the larger debate whether it is or not? (It's not, by the way.) His point was still valid- change "lifestyle choice" with "way of life" or whatever else you like. Would you denigrate all athletes in the same manner? What about Debaters? Cooks? Or something more fundamental, such as priests or those of faith? It is just as wrong to judge a group of people for their preferences as it is for their innate nature.</p>