<p>I put together a spreadsheet that listed the basic COA (tuition, room, board only) for each school. Then as scholarships and awards were offered I listed out each one and then showed the “net” cost for each school. As others have pointed out some very pricey schools became affordable based on what was offered. We discussed not only short-term implications but long-term as well.</p>
<p>In the 80s I was a self-taught musician/vocalist/song-writer who went to Nashville to work in all kinds of music, (particularly Pop Music yes, theres Pop Music in Nashville.) In the end, my lack of training held me back. I had a big voice but was a poor sight reader and I lacked composition and arrangement skills. I wrote a lot of songs, sang a lot of back-up and demos, played a lot of live gigs, built a small studio and eeked out a living for many years. My degree is in education and my thought was I would be bi-vocational until I could be music full-time, but that never happened. People told me I had the raw talent (especially my voice) but I never put myself in the position to have it developed, something I couldnt do on my own.</p>
<p>Flash forward 18 years my oldest son has an unbelievably great voice and has attracted attention from agents and labels in pop music. Being home-schooled has afforded him the opportunity to be in four major theater productions a year for the past four years. He has taken college-level voice lessons and is in a dance studio. He has been told by current Broadway talent that he is ready to audition now, but we are going the conservatory route. You cant develop yourself in anything. Everyone needs training, mentors, counsel, guidance, correction. My son knows he needs work in his dance and acting to be in a position to get top-level work, including Broadway. He picked his school based primarily on their track record for producing performers with Broadway and Broadway Tour credits. He is all-in for this profession. Just like a talented mathematician picks MIT for his training in Engineering he picked his school based on his ultimate goal.</p>
<p>The flip side is also true, without inate, God-given talent, no amount of training will be sufficient to put you in a place where you can work at a high-level, let alone a professional level.</p>
<p>My son has a friend who is an excellent singer and an amazing dancer. He has been in a studio for years and gets sporadic professional work, especially as a choreographer. He did multiple auditions for “Scottsboro Boys” and was in the final 2 for the “Swing” which ultimately went to someone else. He saw that he needed vocal and acting work and picked an inexpensive, but comprehensive Musical Theater program at a nearby state school that has a conservatory model. I’m confident that he’ll get the training he needs to tighten up his skills and I expect to see him work at a professional level.</p>
<p>An actor is a self-employed private contractor who “bids jobs.” Your skill and professionalism will dictate to what level and what type of work you get. Talent is the intangible. Training is the tangible.</p>
<p>I crunched a lot of numbers for the schools my son picked to pursue. I tried to look at all the financial factors in completing a BFA and compared them. I looked at: tuition, room/board, listed static university costs (as listed by the university), estimated unknown costs, length of program (we looked at one international school that was a three-year BFA), length of mandatory dorm residence (some are 1 year, some are 2 years), scholarships, grants, work-study, transfer credits (some schools are more accepting of academic/gen-ed transfer credits than others.) I tried to calculate a high-end estimate cost for each schools BFA. The costs of the 8 schools we targeted ranged from over $100.000.00 to under $50,000.00. The costs included all the up-front offered scholarships from each program. Some programs had more scholarships for returning students. I didnt factor those into our calculations. We had about a 3-week window from the time all the offers and grants were on the table and the deadlines for the decisions were due. We also didnt want to wait until the last minute because we knew there would be other students on waiting lists of the schools our son didnt choose that were quite anxious, (some of whom we knew personally.) In the end, the financial considerations did not exclude our son from his top choice. We were thankful for that.</p>
<p>We are embarking on this process right now with our daughter, who is a junior. One thing that has been very helpful up front is that we met with a coach here that knows the schools, knows my daughter’s skills levels and aspirations (she wants to work at Disney one day), and she was able to quickly tell us what schools my D should and shouldn’t consider. So that eliminated some higher and lower priced schools and kept others in the mix. And she strongly recommended applying to our state university, which is excellent in music and theater, as a bailout that would both give my D some of the skills she’d get in a MT program, and be a no brainer as to affordability.</p>
<p>As we go forth, I have told my D that we will not limit the schools she applies to, but that when hopefully she gets accepted, where she ultimately goes will be based in part on finances. We have a 529 plan we’re funding, we will contribute above that, but we have also been clear that she wiill have to have skin in he game, whether that be through scholarships, work/study, loans, or likely all the above. That has helped motivate her to prepare for the ACT next month, and keep her GPA at a 4.0 and above level. As I put it to her, in a year do you want to have me say to you: I know it’s the school you want, but there’s not enough scholarship $$ for us to be able to afford it? </p>
<p>As for whether it’s a reasonable investment, it’s hard for a guy like me that paid $200 a semester back in the early 70’s to comment! I would say a few things towards that point:</p>
<ol>
<li> Make sure your child’s eyes are wide open going into this, that they know how much they’d pay a month when paying back loans. </li>
<li> I am a firm believer that people need to do what they are passionate about, and that they will be most successful doing that, both in fulfillment and financial gain.</li>
<li> Economically it’s a crap shoot right now as to what field to go into; I know a lot of engineers and MBAs without employment. So I have reconciled myself to the fact that people wil always want to be entertained, plus MT gives kids training in things like interpersonal skills, meeting deadlines, etc that will be attractive in many other employment avenues.<br></li>
<li> I keep trying to convince her younger sister, the smart animal lover, to become a vet so she can support her sister if need be, so I have some hope of retiring someday!</li>
</ol>
<p>So I can sympathize with your plight, but knoe that there are many of us going through the same thing. The biggest question I will have for programs is what their job placement is like for MT grads, whether in the business or other areas. There are a bunch of MT programs listed on this board, some not as well known but a safer bet perhaps, and perhaps less expensive. But if these less well known places don’t prepare the student to be competive in the market, then that would be a bad investment. So I’d suggest getting very specific on that point as you look at schools.</p>
<p>Great to read everyones comments and thoughts on this issue-- lots to think about when we really take a long hard look at our list of schools! Thanks for the help!</p>
<p>A theme that seems to permeate this thread and others on the MT page is almost a sense of near panic that unless a student is immediately successful as a performer upon graduation, their education has been a failure and that to avoid such failure it’s imperative to attend an “expensive name school”. Believe me, I understand the stresses and anxieties we all feel or have felt as parents of students pursuing a career as a performer. Choosing the “right” school is a huge concern. However, it’s also important to take a step back, take a deep breath and gain perspective.</p>
<p>The reality is that there are many schools and programs that offer excellent training and education. Big schools, small schools, “big names”, lesser known schools, schools with national applicant pools and those more regional, expensive private schools and modest state schools. The most important thing is to find schools that are the right fit, where a student will have the resources and comfort level to be fully invested in the learning process. And that does not require over-extending oneself financially or taking on debt that will be crushing to a young graduate.</p>
<p>In this regard, taking on such debt because of a belief that it is necessary to attend that “name” school that you think “promises” immediate employment right out of the gate is short sighted. Achieving success as a performer is not a process of instant gratification upon graduation (at least for the vast majority of performers). It’s a process that evolves over time requiring a long term commitment and vision of success. In a recent radio interview, Aaron Lazar commented that so many young performers expect instant success upon graduation and then feel like a failure if it doesn’t happen that way. Instead, he suggested that students going into theatre adopt a perspective based on as long as a 10 year plan and roadmap to achieve their goals. The name of the school you attend and the amount you paid doesn’t shortcut the process of growing into an accomplished and successful performer.</p>
<p>From my point of view, having my daughter graduate with even $50,000 worth of loans, let alone some of the astronomical figures that get thrown around, was of a hell of a lot of more concern than the name or prestige of the school she attended. Go to the calculators and figure out the monthly payment for a contemplated loan. Add in the cost of housing, health insurance and food. The monthly nut adds up real fast and can easily outstrip the earnings of a college graduate with an undergrad degree regardless of the school that it is from, particularly where the graduate needs to have a “daily sustenance” job that provides the flexibility to take off for auditions, be in shows, go to continuing voice, coaching, dance and acting instruction. (And even for those that start achieving successes early on, don’t count on the compensation to pay a year round living wage. You will still need that “sustenance” job.)</p>
<p>In my view, financial fit has got to be a major aspect of this process and can be without undermining educational quality and future opportunities a graduate will have. Between scholarships and money we had set aside over the years, my daughter was able to graduate without student loans hanging over her. Seven months out, I see the 16 hour days she puts in juggling her “side” jobs with continuing training, auditions and the shows she has picked up. If she had to fit into her budget paying back student loans, her pursuit of theatre would have to give just so that she could find more time to work.That’s the reality for most graduates regardless of the school they attended.</p>
<p>If all of this sounds pessimistic or cynical, it’s not. My daughter loves her life as a young MT graduate. She is working jobs she loves that in many respects draw on the training she received and her creative talents (and which she started planning and positioning herself for after her first semester). She’s continuing her training, auditioning and getting performing opportunities. She’s getting experience, building her resume, making connections, getting EMC points. She’s exhausted but very happy.</p>
<p>So yeah, have those talks with your kids now, disecting the economics, educational priorities, wants and actual needs, and even what it will take to be successful in post graduate life. Then make smart decissions that meet your particular circumstances. Four years later you and your kid will be glad you did.</p>
<p>Michael, very insightful input. Just for myself, I am not in panic mode over whether my daughter will immediately be a big success. Indeed, I think part of the process of growing up is to figure out how to live in those early years when money was scarce. However, I would say that I would ask the same questions about placement of graduates into positions regardless of what field my daughter would choose. While there are a lot of schools to look at, and I’m sure students get a good experience in many, in the end if it does not lead to a degree that can help them proceed into the world it has to weigh into the decision making process.</p>
<p>Jeffandann, if by a degree that can help them proceed into the world you mean the name of the school, that’s part of the point I was trying to make. Let’s take CMU and Temple as examples. Very different schools in Pennsylvania that offer MT degrees. Private and very expensive vs state supported and less than half the cost. BFA vs BA with MT major. Big national reputation with large national audition pool vs regional reputation and more regional audition pool. Both provide excellent MT training. Is it worth going into $50k, $100k or more in debt to attend CMU vs no debt for Temple? Not in my view particularly where employment in the industry will be based on your next audition not the name of the school on the degree. And not where a year or 2 out no one will care what school you went to but your reputation as a reliable and professional performer who is good to work with will far more influence the opportunities you get. And in this case, the irony is that at Temple you can double major and at CMU you can’t which could provide even more value for graduates looking to support themselves after graduation. All things being equal, would CMU be my choice for MT, probably all things being equal but with massive student loans they wouldn’t be.</p>
<p>My daughter will be applying to probably 10 schools, and we just hope she gets into one! One thing I’ve heard about in terms of school selection is to look at cast of current shows (Broadway, region r l, tours, etc) and see what schools are represented.</p>
<p>I am new here, so take my comments with a grain of salt,lol.</p>
<p>Four of the schools my dd is applying for are pricey; Rider, Wagner, Pace, and NY Film Academy. </p>
<p>I am the one who will be doing her FAFSA and I am currently a laid off teacher in NJ. (Thanks Chris,lol)…but I want her to be able to realize her dream so I am going to give her that chance the best I can. Because of my current situation she will probably get a full ride, save for room and board, and we have that covered. The downside is that she is going to graduate with huge debt. We have all counseled her with that, and our solution is that she minor in something that will give her a better career choice; Theater Business or Management, or some kind of business courses in case she wants to manage or open her own dance or acting studio. That, and she has to be prepared to work her ass off all summer and as much as possible for her spending money.</p>
<p>We will try it for a year, and see if we can make it work. I just don’t want to see her miss out on trying for her dream, something she has wanted since she could walk. I know it’s crazy in this economy to have this mindset, but so long as she understands what she is looking at ahead, and that eventually Sallie Mae is going to come knocking, and she better be prepared to answer the door, we will support her the best we can.</p>
<p>Have her apply to Shenandoah in the fall for the first set of audition dates next year. With those grades and test scores, she qualifies for a Presidential Scholarship worth at least $12,000. If she gets in, she’s very likely to get it.</p>
<p>I’ve lived in Louisiana and taught many MT high school kids there in Gonzales and Lafayette. I’ve worked with students from the MT school in the state that you are talking about. With all due respect, you do want to look around. That is not to say that you cannot get a good education there, but speaking as a private teacher counseling high school kids, the program is not as strong as others in the region. I agree that you can often learn something out of any program and every student needs to find a good fit for themselves, but I would really recommend taking a look around at all of your options. </p>
<p>LSU is a good option if she has any interest in straight theatre. The program there is very good and if your D is not a hardcore dancer, it may be a really good option. I’m not sure if she can take dance on the side, but there are two EXCELLENT private voice teachers off-campus that will give your D MT voice training at the level of some of the top conservatories. If you want more info, PM me.</p>
<p>VT</p>
<p>jeffandann, if looking at the casts of current shows, you will see a broad variety of schools and educational paths represented. “Big Reputation” schools, lesser publicized schools, BFA’s, BA’s, MFA’s. It’s interesting but should hardly be determinative of how to structure a list of schools to which to apply. The fact that some schools appear to have a heavier showing than others is at best correlative and does not reflect that if you attend a particular school, you have a better chance of being cast. There are so many factors that go into being cast and most are highly subjective evaluations on a variety of factors of whether an actor is well suited for the role. Moreover, schools that seem to be frequently represented in program books today may be different than schools frequently represented in program books four years from now. And while the school you attend can facilitate connections that get you opportunities to audition, the school doesn’t get you the role and once you are out a year or so, how you have been perceived at auditions (whether you got the role or not), how you are perceived by directors and others who make casting decisions with whom you have worked, whether you have an effective agent in those markets where an agent is an important piece of the process, are all more important in getting opportunities than the name of the school on the degree. In my daughter’s experience, during her senior year of college, when she was permitted to audition for outside productions, she got called in for some auditions for which she submitted because of her school’s reputation and contacts made through her program. Now, even just 7 months out, she is getting called in for auditions based on other auditions she has attended and based on what she brought to the table when she was cast. The longer she is out, the less important the former will be and even now it is the latter that is critical. </p>
<p>In my view, the key is to find the schools that provide the type of training, style, balance and educational approach that best match a students needs and desires. Obviously, you need to choose a program that provides excellent training and sometimes those schools may be the very expensive, big reputation private college programs. My point was that there are many schools not in that category that could also provide excellent educational and programatic strengths and match without the 10’s of thousands of dollars of debilitating loan debt. In other words, for those who believe that it is necessary to incur that kind of debt to pursue the “dream”, I’m saying “no it’s not”, take a step back and think it through a bit more before you make that kind of commitment that can create a very real burden on students and parents for 15-20 years after graduation. </p>
<p>The bottom line is that everyone needs to make the decisions and choices that they are comfortable with and it is, as others have said, a very personal decision. There is no one “right” approach to this process. I wish you and everyone else going through this process an outcome that is gratifying and meets your desires and dreams.</p>
<p>Thanks VT and everyone else who’s posted recently and resurrected this thread from a few months ago. Lots of really thoughtful posts … </p>
<p>My S is an engineering major at a state school. He has stellar grades and works part-time on campus doing engineering research but hasn’t been able to get a summer engineering job yet…So even an engineering degree holds no guarantees! He’s thinking of adding an education and math minor to expand his possibilities for a job after he graduates.</p>
<p>VT: my D doesn’t want to go to LSU. Half her high school is there and she wants to expand her horizons…and it’s straight theatre. She really wants to study MT. I’ll PM you our latest list…</p>
<p>I just came back from NYC from a three-day trip with my D and the theatre students/faculty from her school. They had a talk-back with members of the cast and crew of Sister Act (which was fabulous BTW). They encouraged kids to get an education, saying it wasn’t necessary years ago but is now. All the parents on the trip were very thankful they said that!! </p>
<p>In addition, Fred Applegate who played the Monsignor (and has performed on Broadway off and on since ’98 according to ibdb ) gave very good advice. He said there’s a difference between your goal and opportunities. He said your goal may be to perform on Broadway, but there are many opportunities along the way to perform locally and regionally. He said to take advantage of as many of those opportunities along the way. You may not get to your goal, but you’ll be performing and learning from the directors, crew, and cast along the way.</p>
<p>Our students also had an MT workshop while in NYC. The instructor has performed on Broadway, taught at a college, and was off to Paris for film work. Our tour guide graduated from NYU and did some film work, along with music. My D’s teachers met up with an old friend working in NYC on three different projects. It really brought home to me that working in theatre after one graduates is not like getting a 9 to 5 job in the corporate world where they recruit on campus and you sign up with benefits etc. </p>
<p>Working after one graduates in theatre will more than likely involve multi-tasking several projects/part-time jobs at the same time. Hopefully with one of those jobs will serve as the “sustenance” job as mentioned a few posts above, allowing one to audition or work on multiple things at one time, yet provide enough money to cover the basics. Financing continuing lessons and hefty loan payments in this scenario gets dicey. </p>
<p>So my advice to my D is to strike a balance between the cost and the quality of the education/training she will get, also considering those programs that do a good job of helping grads get work. I also want her to graduate with a skill/talent/knowledge that will allow her a quality “sustenance” job be it dance instructor/choreographer, teacher, etc., that will help pay those bills!!</p>
<p>Many of her classmates who were on the trip were talking about going to NYU etc and I heard my D tell them, well I’d like to go there, too, but I don’t want to have a lot of debt when I graduate. I can move to NY after I graduate and not have as much debt.</p>
<p>I was so proud!</p>
<p>Without asking how much anyone got, is getting half possible at many of these $50+ schools? We have 3 friends at NYU- all paying nearly full tuition. I can’t do that. We have 2 friends who chose more reasonable schools are finding issues and may not stay. I know state schools have a limit on what they can give to OSS. If you actually have substantial need, talent, and great grades is it possible to get half at most schools or is that just not happening? No one can say to what degree a school wants you but if they REALLY want you can they make that kind of offer?</p>
<p>Northwestern commits to meeting 100% of every admitted student’s demonstrated financial need, and D knows folks getting pretty much a full ride there. Tough to beat that! OTOH, they offer virtually NO talent or merit aid.</p>
<p>@Lulusmom2- just a word of caution: having an EFC of -0- does NOT mean that your D will get a full tuition ride at most schools. She may well be offered a financial aid package that includes work-study, grants and which requires her to take out loans, or requests that you sign for a Parent Plus Loan. The latter doesn’t seem to care if you have the means to pay it back and doesn’t to do verification, but a school can pull all financial aid offers if you don’t agree to sign on the line.
That said, I really admire you for doing all you can to help your D realize her dream, that’s what it’s all about! Good luck to her!</p>
<p>lulusmom2 – If you have not been over to the financial aid forum, you may want to check it out. As Mezzo’sMama said, a “0” EFC will not necessarily turn into a full tuition ride. Most schools do not meed full need and gap students and their families. The few schools that do meet full need often also require the CSS Profile which will ask for a lot more information. Often including non-custodial parent information, additional assets, etc… (if applicable). </p>
<p>With a “0” EFC and no additional talent or merit money your D would be offered full Pell Grant ($5500), plus she could take out the stafford loan for $5500 in her own name. NJ may have additional loan or grant programs to assist “0” or other low EFC students. I am not sure. Depending on the school she may also be offered a perkins loan for a small amount.</p>
<p>In terms of additional loans, she will only be able to take out additional student loans in her name with a qualified co-signer. Parents can apply for the Parent PLUS loan … if the parent(s) are denied the student may take out an additional federal loan (I believe it is about $4000 more for the year). </p>
<p>I am sure that you know Montclair State is an in-state Musical Theatre option. A very good school for Musical Theatre… a competitive admit. Rutgers has a wonderful acting program, also a competitive admit. Since you mention that four of her schools are pricey, it sounds like she has other schools on her list that may be less pricy.</p>
<p>All the best! :)</p>
<p>theatremomma, it really depends on the school. If you are talking about NYU, there are a number of parents on the MT board with current students there who could give you information. As a general matter a school’s financial aid office and the department office can provide details of the amount of merit scholarships that are typically given as well as need based grants and scholarships. There are very high quality, respected MT programs where students can get merit scholarships in the range you describe (50% tuition).</p>
<p>The school from which my daughter graduated, for example, has very well funded scholarship endowments and is very generous with many students. In 2007, the top level university merit scholarship offered was $10,000 a year for 4 years. There is also scholarship money available through the school from outside foundations. I don’t know what the top level scholarship is now but as a reference point, in 2007, the second level scholarship was $8000/year and based on info given to me by parents of current admitted applicants, it has been increased to $13,000/year so I would suspect that the top level merit scholarship is now $15,000/year. 2012 tuition is $33,500 plus $12,300 for room and meal plan for a grand total of $45,800.</p>
<p>Thanks everyone for your replies. I myself just graduated in 2010 from FDU and had an EFC of 0. I had grants, scholarships, Pell, and Staffords. We sat with the Wagner Financial aid officer and they seemed confident she would get most of what she needs. I am prepared to pay something as far as room/board etc. and I know she won’t have a complete ride but I am hoping it will be close. IF not she may have to consider doing two years of Community College and transferring in as a Junior, something she really doesnt want to do. I just hope it doesn’t come to that. For now we have to get through the audition process; the only for sure academic acceptance she has is PACE; the others are all contingent on her auditions. This has been very tough for all of us; my mom just passed away and she left some money for her and I have some savings as well, but it may not be enough. She did not apply at any state schools even though we encouraged her to. I am grateful for everyone’s help even though I now feel I am going to have to have a difficult discussion with my daughter. </p>
<p>her, but beyond that and some of my savings that’s all we have. reasons. I</p>
<p>Lulusmom2 ~ sorry about your mom. Please research the transferring thing. Many schools do not accept MT transfers or make you start over as a freshman.</p>
<p>Lulusmom2, sorry to hear about your mom. Something to be aware of as you map out your game plan is that MT/Acting programs typically have a mandated sequence of courses which must be satisfied and often transfer credits are not accepted to do so, particularly for performance/studio courses. As a result, transfer students may have to plan for an additional year in order to complete the required sequence. It’s important to discuss this with each school to make sure you understand its policies on transfers. </p>
<p>Wagner, while not as rigidly structured as many other schools, does have some courses that must be taken in sequence by semester. There is a chart of required courses for performance majors with a link found on the theatre major page. The chart shows the sequencing of certain mandated studio based courses and contains a cautionary note for transfers and those who take a semester abroad. Something to follow up with in your discussions with Wagner.</p>
<p>(just saw I cross posted with lojosmo)</p>