runswimyoga - True. I have heard that as well.
@epiphany Agreed on the regional effects and the laid-back Asian parents not being vocal or visible. I don’t even know why I am even spending my time and energy into this thread, but I am tired of Asian parents being “labeled” as tiger parents and felt strongly that I needed to voice my opinion to this small group of CC posters (even though I know that I will not make any difference in the stereotypes or opinions of most people). One of the points I was trying to make before is that if you take the high achieving white or black kids at the most select colleges, I am quite certain that their upbringing and their parents were more strict (instilling discipline), more involved and more nurturing (I prefer this to “push”) than the parents in general. This is definitely not being a tiger parent and is very similar to how most Asian parents try to raise their kids. You can take your anecdotes as your own experiences but do not generalize it to fit the stereotypes.
As for “my own direct experience illustrates a very high proportion of Tiger Parents relative to the school population as a whole and relative to parents of Western origin”, what is your definition of a Tiger Parent? How do you know that there is a high proportion of Tiger Parents in your kids school relative to parents of Western origin? As I mentioned, being actively involved and being more strict does not make a Tiger parent. To further add, I saw some (not many) fathers of Western origin (white) during baseball, football and soccer games/practices shout and scream to their kids with insults and sometimes (rarely) profanity but I do not think for one second that many white fathers treat their kids this way.
"Funny, my son did a college admissions panel at his school today- long story short his guidance con. told the panel afterwards that many Asian parents are paying big money to college admission planning specialists to craft a non-Asian looking Asian applicant for admission… i.e. instead of violin/orchestra, DECA, tennis etc to gear them towards other activities/ sports/clubs/service that makes them stand out from the other Asian applicants… "
Why do you think this is happening? As Asians move from the DYI/Sunday school mode that relied on what worked decades ago (based on individual prowess in solitary activities, early tutoring and relentless focus on test scores) to the 21st century admission specialists and packagers, the mantra is to develop applications that are less common and less culturally defined. What could one conclude from this? Could it be that admissions’ officers have learned to recognize that the many activities that pepper some applications simply are abandoned as soon as the admission is earned, and that the padded résumés are hardly turning into participation in college in similar activities, contrary to applicants who present a history of participation in community service and other less selfish activities where the we dwarfs the I. In so many words, what is needed is more homeless soup serving and less doctor shadowing!
In a way, isn’t that exactly what the few who have described Chua’s contribution as misguided happened to say?
" I don’t even know why I am even spending my time and energy into this thread, but I am tired of Asian parents being “labeled” as tiger parents and felt strongly that I needed to voice my opinion to this small group of CC posters"
I think that everyone will easily admits it is wrong to generalize about Asian parents. After all, most of us have seen that the Asian community is hardly homogeneous and that its view on academic achievement varies greatly. This said, while most are not, there is a vocal and tangible group of Asians who believe in the Chua’s tenets. I think that we can rely on our experiences to write about them!
Your children were lucky!
Southeast Asians (i.e. “Asians”) are no more homogeneous than are Europeans, or Russians, or Latin Americans, or Americans for that matter. It’s a huge section of the world with multiple cultures with some overarching similarities, but more than a few differences too.
That said: Amy Chua and her way of teaching things is not an outlier. Yes, it is a pretty extreme extension of the “Asian parents” stereotype, one that is taken too far and is rather unhealthy. But it’s also not unheard of or even rare - I know more a couple of Asian parents who are exactly like this. I have found that while their children are often successful in that they obtain a successful traditional job and go to top universities, they aren’t what I’d call well-adjusted. Mind you, this isn’t all or even most Asians I’ve known - most have a pretty good sense of how far is too far, and that children don’t develop well under conditions that would warrant calling Child Protective Services.
Here’s one tidbit from a review of her book that gives a less positive perspective of that kind of parenting:
As a host parent to a few international students over the years, all from China, I can tell you that the pressure on these kids is unbelievable. It’s really sad to see all the tears shed every night because of their parents expectations. They are all expected to go to ivy league schools even though they are nowhere near ivy league material. So far out of the four I’ve hosted none have gotten into an ivy. The fourth one that is currently a sophomore in high school, and the only one still with me, has a chance but she’s killing herself trying to do it. I’ve tried explaining that there are many good universities to pick from but they don’t want to hear it.
They’re like that because the “Ivy or bust” is real back in China. Being able to get into one of the best universities is the difference between success and failure in their entire career. It’s hard to convince people that that’s not really how it is in the US.
@Zeldie You are right about the minority of Asians “who believe in the Chua’s tenets. I think that we can rely on our experiences to write about them!” and I appreciate your comments. But as someone also mentioned in the earlier post, there are minority of parents who are Russian, Nigerian, or even Americans (white and black) who also practice Chua’s method of parenting. An example I gave above involving screaming fathers at practice/games. But for some odd reason, this is only magnified in the media as an Asian problem/phenomenon, and that is what I am miffed about. There are many types and forms of a Tiger Parent from different race and ethnic groups, but the media and some of the posters here only focus on Asians. I am sure that most have watched a movie “Shine” (based on true story) and the father perfectly fits the mold of a Tiger Parent. And no, he isn’t Asian.
@Anamgol
You keep using “strict” as your definition of a supposedly Tiger Parent, and in that definition – a definition I reject – you include any family which has strict standards, which could include families of many ethnic and national origins. It’s not necessary to interpret even every generalization personally. Plenty of generalizations about Caucasians also happen to be true, whether or not I personally have engaged in that behavior as a parent or was treated to that behavior as a child.
“Strict” refers to standards and discipline. As @Hunt pointed out, restriction is something else entirely. I have lots of experiences within a highly diverse population, but the families who come to me are about 98% Asian, meaning in my case Chinese, Taiwanese, Korean, Thai, and Indian. Only two of my students have been Russian. My regional experience over the last 10 years in the business has skewed overwhelmingly toward Asian parents who significantly restrict what their students are and are not allowed to pursue, in type and amount. OTOH, I realize that the kinds of parents who come to (“visible and vocal”) will tend to be the more ambitious set, so the sample itself does not match even the local population accurately.
I am not bothered by the word or the reality of “strict.” I own it because I am it. And so were my parents, for whom I am grateful and to whom I owe much. But what neither they nor I have done is to tell our own offspring who they are allowed to be, in addition to what they are allowed to do. We do not own our children; they are on loan to us, so to speak. I find it insupportable to interfere with the deeply personal direction of any student. It will not be happening on my watch. I am tired of the heartbreaking accounts from my students of parents who destroyed their art work in front of the student’s eyes. I am tired of students telling me that they chose drawing over painting – even though painting was a first love – because they could quickly hide their dry drawings but not their paints and brushes, whenever their parents entered their rooms. I’m tired of hearing about parents who took their children’s paintings, threw them on the floor, stepped on them, or tore them up. Tired of students having to wait until their parents are on a short walk in order to play their instruments. (How ironic is that? But it’s a true story.) I’m tired of watching students sob in front of me when they tell me their parents won’t “let” them major in X, regardless of how obviously better suited these students are, intellectually and personally, to that chosen major. Tired of career decisions being made by parents, not their students, and those decisions being made so early on, often way before college. Tired of watching students struggle to be feel free enough to agree to their personal destinies.
My local population must already understand this, because the first thing any Asian parent does, who does not feel that way, is tell me that he/she/both is supportive of the student’s decision to major in X or become Y. Such parents represent about 15% of my clientele. Thankfully, I can say that’s an improvement from 4 years ago, by the way, when that percentage was more like 10.
@epiphany I don’t know what you do nor do I claim to know of your experiences with Asian families. But you obviously did not read my posts carefully. I do not equate being strict as the definition of a Tiger parent. I am actually advocating that it is not. This is what I said above: “I am quite certain that their upbringing and their parents were more strict (instilling discipline), more involved and more nurturing (I prefer this to “push”) than the parents in general. This is definitely not being a tiger parent and is very similar to how most Asian parents try to raise their kids.” (emphasis on DEFINITELY NOT). My definition of a Tiger parent is exactly the same as yours, Amy Chua and others who force their will upon their children and try to dictate or steer their career paths and hobbies. I can assure you that none of the Asian parents that I know of do this, and I know many.
You say that 98% of your students are Asians and that the majority of these parents will restrict what their kids can or can’t do. “overwhelmingly toward Asian parents who significantly restrict what their students are and are not allowed to pursue” Like I said before and I will say it again, I find it hard to believe that the majority of Asian parents would bring up their kids this way. Perhaps, the majority of families that do come to you are the “ambitious” or the tiger parent types. But my experiences with my own children and my friends kids say otherwise. In fact, I do not know a single tiger mom or dad in my many circle of Asian friends. I also find the blank statements (by some) or the implied nuances that the majority of Asian parents RESTRICT their kids activities/hobbies and try to dictate their career are not only false but offensive.
I am sorry that you experienced or encountered MANY Asian parents who did the following: “I’m tired of hearing about parents who took their children’s paintings, threw them on the floor, stepped on them, or tore them up.” But I can ASSURE you that this is not the standard Asian culture of parenting, but far from it. I am sorry to say but the Asian families that you have encountered numerous times in the last 10 years are NOT the norm nor are they the majority. I can assure you that. As I said above, I have encountered over the years a few white fathers who scream and curse their kids out on the sidelines but I have never witnessed an Asian parents who scream at their kids during a game. But I also know that not all white fathers treat their kids that way and I am also not blind to the fact that some Asian parents can be just as abusive as those white parents.
I think other then the influence of their immigrant culture, Asian/South Asian parents tend to push kids into academics because it is more competitive for these kids to get into good colleges because of their race, they aren’t the right kind of minority .
Secondly, majority of these families are upper middle class who get none or negligible financial aid, they have to earn merit scholarships or take loans/drain their parents to pay for college.
Ever heard of an Asian or Indian kid getting into all 8 Ivy schools with offers of $2 million financial aid and scholarships. They are lucky if they get into one or two even if their credentials are much higher and they have to cover their own expenses because Ivies don’t give merit scholarships.
They torture them after the game when nobody can hear.
@CCDD14
That was an ill-advised attempt at humor. It you meant it, that is the most racist comment that I read on this thread. Hope you were kidding.
I am only partially kidding. But in junior sports there are tiger parents of all different races and ethnicities. Asian parents are probably not the worst but some are pretty bad.
Agreed that there are tiger parents of all different races. I did say that I am not blind to the fact that there are some Asian parents who are as abusive as any of the worst parents. I am firmly against the notion that there are disproportionately more Asian Tiger parents than other races, which is what the original thread was about.
I think part of the problem with this tiger parenting is this assumption that talent does not matter, that if the child puts enough hard work he/she will achieve great results. I think these ideas are more prevalent in Asian households. Other ethnicities allow more freedom to find what the child is really good at.
Whoa! This thread disturbs me.
I am going to apologize to all Asian, non-Tiger parents.
I apologize if your parenting skills are unfairly judged if you are blessed to have high-achieving children.
I apologize for the anger directed at you, because your child/children are taking precious spots at prestigious universities.
I apologize if you receive hostile looks and comments, when you are mistaken as a non-resident alien even though you are an American.
It is one thing, when people criticize actions that they perceive to be abusive to children. That I applaud.
In my opinion it crosses the line when it is attributed to race…no matter what one observes or reads.
To draw conclusions on the pervasiveness within the very broad, diverse Asian population is hurtful and I believe unfair.
I’d like to believe that people on this forum, in their haste to speak out against perceived cruelty, are mistakenly condoning a racial stereotype. Because that is what it appears to me. Some people condoning a racial stereotype.
Yes, many Asian parents want their kids to work hard, as do (I think) most white or non-Asian parents. But please do not assume that the majority of Asian parents do this so that their kids will achieve great results (I don’t even know what you perceive as great results). We only want what any parents would want for their kids: to have good education (will help in landing jobs that provide financial support) and be happy with their lives.
“Other ethnicities allow more freedom to find what the child is really good at.” What is your basis for this blank statement? Do you know for a fact that Asian parents do not allow any freedom to their kids? When our kids were younger, we “explored” many activities to find out what they were good at/interested. In fact, most of our Asian (mostly Korean) friends did the same and shared information. It is dangerous when one assumes his/her anecdotes as facts, which leads to stereotyping. In fact, did you know that in South Korea, many parents put aside education because their kids told them that they want to be singers and actors? This is far from limiting their kids’ experiences/desires and dictating their life choices.
@88jm19
Eloquently said. Thank you. I am also bothered by the passive-aggresive tone of racial stereotypes in this thread; thus ended up spending all of my evening voicing my concerns.
Case in point, Lydia Lee, a Korean high school student from Seoul MUSIC High School is an amazing singer.