@twogirls You appear to be knocking the caliber of students from OOS who attend Big 10 schools such as Ohio State (OSU) and Penn State, especially in comparison to the type of students you say choose SUNY Binghamton. College is a business, and Binghamton, Ohio State and Penn State, like most public universities, will accept OOS applicants with lesser credentials in order to get higher out-of-state tuitions from full pay applicants. Thats just how it is. However, your characterization of the types of OOS students who attend Ohio State does not appear accurate from my perspective. For example, at my son’s high school in NY, several of the higher level kids (including my son) that sought an undergraduate business degree got accepted into Big 10 schools–Michigan (but not pre-admit to Ross school of business, which is extremely difficult), Ohio State Fisher College of Business, Indiana Kelley school of business, Maryland Smith school of business, and Penn State Smeal business school. They chose OSU’s Fisher college of business over these other Big 10 schools, because of the lower annual tuition ($27,000 at OSU vs. $43,000 for Michigan, vs $35,000 for Indiana’s Kelley vs $32,000 for Maryland’s Smith and $32,000 for Penn State), and because of the substantial merit aid offered by Ohio State for high level OOS students (ranging from $14,000 to $18,000) versus 0 merit aid from Michigan and a pittance in merit aid from Indiana, Maryland and Penn State. Ohio State, like Alabama, offers great scholarship incentive to attract high stat students. My son and these kids also got accepted to the Ohio State Honors Program (which was an added incentive, with priority registration and smaller class size taught by faculty). And they chose OSU over SUNY Binghamton and its school of management, because for just a few thousand dollars more each year, they could obtain the fuller college experience that a Big 10 school like Ohio State has to offer, with more of everything–resources, more modern facilities, big-time sports, greek life, extra-curricular activities/clubs and urban life (being situated on the outskirts of the capitol of Columbus) than SUNY Binghamton or any of the other SUNYs.
trackmbe3, I think it is entirely possible that some of the people criticizing the caliber of students attending Big 10 schools have never spent time in any. Many NYers who adore SUNYs don’t realize how much they differ from the better public universities. If you haven’t been to Michigan or Wisconsin and only know SUNY you may imagine Michigan to be like Binghamton. And if you were to place those people on Wisconsin’s or Michigan’s campus, they’d assume they were at a private school.
trackmbe3- I realize that is how I may come across and for that, I apologize. These Big 10 schools are excellent and have a lot to offer- I said that in many of my posts. Most of the students from our HS who attend these schools do not make the business schools that you are referring to, which are competitive and quite good.
lostaccount I have been to Big 10 schools (not all) and I know how they differ from SUNY. Over the past 5 years I have visited over 30 schools spanning 10 states with both of my kids. I know that Big 10 schools attract strong students and have a lot to offer- I agree 100% and always did agree. I am just referring to a small subset of students from our HS who attend these schools because of the out of state tuitions that they bring in. This is the reason why top students at our HS will not attend- remember we are dealing with teenagers who feel this way, not adults. I am just trying to explain “why no love for the Big 10 schools” from the perspective of kids who will not attend some of them. This is not how I feel- I tried to convince my daughter to attend the honors program at OS. She could have attended for less $ than a SUNY. She refused. Why did she refuse? Because she worked like a dog and did not want to go to school with kids from her HS who never picked up a book. She said she would prefer Binghamton (she does not go there) because from our HS, the caliber of student is stronger than some who attend OS and PS. I do recognize that very strong students attend OS and PS- just not from our HS.
At our HS the top students will attend Ross. They will not attend the business schools at OS or PS, even with enormous merit from OS. I do not know why that happens, but it does. The kids from our HS who attend OS or PS are not getting into these business schools. Not even close. I will state one more time for the record that these schools are excellent and have a lot to offer. Again, I am just trying to explain “why no love for the Big 10 schools” from the perspective of some 18 year olds (I am not talking Michigan and similar schools).
Ditto for many very strong students from other high schools that aren’t located in B1G states.
Why would they choose public B1G schools when they can attend their own state flagships at much lower costs? If their family incomes are low enough to qualify for need-based aid at the most selective colleges, why would they choose a public B1G school if they can attend a private college with even better (or at least competitive) undergraduate academics at much lower costs?
So although there is plenty of love for the Big 10 schools in their own states, there isn’t such a big market for them among HS students in other states. The kids of students attracted to CC - typically, strong students who are shopping the national market - usually wouldn’t view them as first-choice schools. On the other hand, for many good students who are fortunate to live in a Big 10 state and who love the Big 10 schools, there’s no good reason to spend much time on College Confidential. Your first choice college is obvious.
Well, I mentioned Indiana U.
I know a lot of kids here in the Chicago metro area and in IL go to Indiana or Iowa because they are not as selective as UMich or U of IL in Urbana. I think U of Wisconsin is more selective, as well.
I don’t know why they are not as selective, or why the others are more so… but that’s how it is, and I think that’s why so many OOS kids end up at those schools.
Back when dinosaurs roamed, :), I attended Indiana because they offered a major that my first school, a small local private school, did not, and other state schools didn’t - and I was in-state and it was an opportunity for me to major in what I wanted for a cheaper price than a more elite private school (where I may not have been admitted, I never applied, I couldn’t have afforded it anyway.)
I felt like I got a good education there, although more attention was paid to me at the smaller private I transferred from. But the resources at IU were vast…
I do believe a lot of it is what each student brings to the table, as well… But a kid could do much worse than the Big 10. Especially if they’re there for the right reasons.
BeeDAre, large schools tend to offer more options in terms of majors and the resources at places like IU are vast. But they are not vast at all large schools.So students should not assume all large universities will support their learning equally well. I’m not sure what to attribute the differences to but some states with many public schools lack decent resources in some or all of them.
SUNY has 64 campuses. 4 are universities but even those are not flag ships and don’t resemble flagships. They don’t have vast resources available. Binghamton neglected education resources for a decade in favor of putting resources into great athletics. They displaced beloved coaches/staff, transitioned from Division 3 to Division 1, built an amazing arena that would rival any in the country and hired new staff in athletics at prices several times the amount spent on the highest ranked academic staff members. Yeah, other schools do it too (to anticipate the reaction) but usually not ones who have been criticized for what these people were known to have done. But eventually the corruption was revealed in a report called The Kaye Report. Turned out to be corrupt from the top down (the university president “retired” in disgrace but many involved were promoted) and the entire thing fell apart. Then they apparently turned their attention to constructing great dorms while labs available for teaching languished a decade behind the times. I guess dorms are done but apparently they still don’t put resources into undergraduate teaching since the faculty to student ratio is still 1:20 although some sites list it as 1:21. It may not be possible to have 64 great campuses in one state. I’m sure this is not true of just NY. States with 50 or more campuses that don’t have flagships probably don’t have great resources in any of them.
I think you might recognize the dinosaurs that roam on some campuses.
Students looking to study OOS should evaluate each campus rather than assume that a particular campus is adequate just because the system is known to be a good one. Each campus can be radically different then the others. That is certainly true for the SUNY system but I’m sure that the SUNY system is not unique that way.
The people who are baffled by why someone would pay $50k when they could pay $30k don’t understand that there are criteria other than price. Think of watches…some people just want something that tells them what time it is. Some want a watch that brings prestige. Some want the same watch their father wore. Some see a watch as an investment. Some want a watch with all sorts of superfluous features that they will probably never use. Same with colleges.
Big 10 schools are excellent. There are two things that I do not like:
- The SUNY bashing- thankfully that seems to have stopped.
- What my friend is dealing with:D got into a Big 10 as a huge reach (not UMich, etc) and now has to drop her major because it is too difficult. She was accepted to “lower” schools with merit $ for this major. The kid is currently undecided and is floundering with her choice of major. She really wants the original major but academically it is too hard at this particular school. She refuses to transfer because she now fell in love with the whole rah rah experience. My friend feels she is spending $40,000 a year for a sleep away camp. I understand that this issue can happen at all schools- not just Big 10.
^ Just shows how all this careful, upfront research and planning is sometimes not enough. Or misguided. I think a lot of us need to work on our ‘fit’ with our children before we can assess the ‘fit’ between our kid and a school. I’m guilty of this at times. Probably a lot of times.
The GC told the girl that this school is a reach and she may not get in. She set up an appointment with an admissions counselor who was traveling through the area and he told her not to put her major on the application because she would almost certainly get rejected. He advised her to put undecided because then she would have a 50/50 shot at acceptance. My friend should have sat her D down and told her that if she really wants this particular major, then she needs to go elsewhere because this school is clearly a reach. Hindsight is 20/20. Again, this can happen at all schools and not just at Big 10.
Twogirls, Criticizing schools isn’t bashing. Allowing the PR departments at any university to make claims that are deceptive or blatantly inaccurate does no favors to students or parents. The public has a right to accurate information. If there are other schools with misleading PR, then I hope others will inform the public about those. If you don’t believe that the scandals that rocked Binghamton University/SUNY a few years ago (which a recent 21 year old graduate felt was ancient and irrelevant to current students) suggests problems, then you may not be well informed.
What does it say about a school that promotes an Affirmative Action Officer after an official report states that she had accused staff members of racism in order to shame them into doing what she wanted them to do, when there was no evidence these staff members were racist. Worse, she screamed “racism” (by her conduct not using words) when she knew she was lying and she knew the staff members had not conducted themselves in a way that even hinted of racism. You’d think she would have to apologize to all the people who have experienced discrimination but whose claims were not taken seriously because of suspicions about their motives-could they be lying to get their way. Well she was! An AA Officer who was lying about racism to get her way. You’d think if an investigation revealed this to be true then she’d lose her job. She apparently get promoted! So even after the scandal made some things very clear, the university refused to allow the revelations of impropriety alter the way they conduct business. At least some administrators perpetrating the scandals were promoted. Well watch out then!
If you want to believe that the corruption detailed in “Kaye Report” at “Binghamton University” was limited to an isolated incident or to sports, that is your right. Are you aware of the subsequent string of scandals? The school carefully chose an investigator after the corruption became too public to hide. The school was fined big $$ for more corruption due to illegal hiring practices of that carefully chosen investigator. Maybe it did not bother you that parents wrote letters to the school for years begging for information about hazing after their son or daughter was hurt or involved, something administrators knew about but denied to those very parents begging for help. Or maybe you don’t have a kid whose face was bashed one evening in downtown Binghamton while you believed it was a save place for your son or daughter. And maybe your kid wasn’t begging for and denied a fair hearing that could result in punishment of the person who assaulted him/her. Or maybe the unethical business dealings involving DeFleur and NYSEG and possibly Newman does not bother you because she retired 5 years ago when she heard her corruption would be made public (although on campus it was far from secret). And maybe it does not bother you that people who reported assaults, discrimination, harassment were not taken seriously. Perhaps it does not bother you that victims had to encounter those who assaulted them in classes and staff encountered those who mistreated them in meetings because reports about bad conduct submitted to officials can end up in the circular file followed by claims that the report was never submitted. And maybe you’d like to hear that the school, with a dean that discusses how to get students through as cheaply and quickly as possible, is just like an Ivy League School. Maybe the 23:1 ratio of faculty to students seems just like Harvard to you. Many people on campus knew exactly what was going on. It got so bad because nobody would tell. Positive change is possible only if people call out bad behavior.
You have every right to believe what you want. I can tell you with complete certainty that many students, staff and faculty were hurt by the bad dealings at Binghamton University. If they have stopped, well that is great. But it took a lot of people a good long time before what a few people (who were silenced) had complained about became much more public. It won’t stop until it is public.
Binghamton is an adequate medium to large public school that attracts strong students because it is a cheap and efficient way to get a degree. Some students love it. It fills the need for many students. Many students get well paying jobs after graduating. It isn’t similar to the better flagship universities. There is no reason to believe it would offer the kind of experience students get at places like Michigan, UVa, Wisc, and similar. I’m not saying the students are not as good. I am saying that the experience isn’t as good for most. It is much cheaper. It is much more like the local or smaller campuses in states that have flagships. Some students that hated other places thrive at Binghamton. NY has about 64 campuses. The university centers are poorly funded and run on minimal resources. In Binghamton’s case, they spent billions in ways many think was foolish. Those funds should have gone to support academics. Given the past decade, let’s stop the Ivy/premier nonsense and simply try to resurrect a reasonably decent public school system.
But I will add that the things I bring up about SUNY could very well happen at other places too. Each student needs to find the right school for him or her self. What is a great liability about one school for one student may be a big plus for another students. The key is that information about each school has to be available and it has to be accurate.
Affluent kids with excellent credentials who don’t live in a state with a great public system (or whose great public system has become so competitive that they risk being shut out of the flagship school(s) because they live in a place or go to a school with a surfeit of exceptionally well-qualified applicants) will look at Big 10s. My DC falls into the first category and chose a Big 10 over a UC for her safety. And I know Virginians and Californians in the second category.
Lack of discussion here may not reflect lack of “love” – there’s just no lack of info. Which UC or which LAC is a tough question in some cases and worth researching here. Is Michigan or Wisconsin a good school for my kid – not so hard to figure out from other sources. Ditto OSU and Penn State where the East Coast kids I know who are interested are typically athletes. Purdue draws engineers. And Northwestern has lots of fans – for a host of different reasons. In my neck of the woods, interest (or lack thereof) in Notre Dame seems to be a function of religion and politics more than anything else. All these are well-known schools with established national reputations, often for specific things.
Ohio State and Penn State are very popular where I live. The students who attend are typically B students (perfectly fine) whose parents have no problem paying full OOS cost. They are not athletes but enjoy the school spirit that these schools bring. Many top students here use OS as a safety and get accepted to honors with a lot of merit.
exacademic, same here where the state system is lacking (your 1st category). Top local students head to Michigan which is also big enough that they don’t replicate high school dynamics there. There is a big gap in the achievement levels of those that head to Michigan and those that stay more (state) local. They too are students who like sports but aren’t going to play for the team. Most end up doing club. Incidentally, this is not viewed as a safety in any way. In fact, the students I know attending Michigan could also have gotten into some of the top 10 privates. They also aren’t choosing it for any merit money. For most of the students I know who attend, money was not a consideration and some had their eye on Michigan for years before applying. If they didn’t go to Michigan, these students are ones who might have attended Cornell.