<p>@intparent - Nicely said! Yep, I am all for get it off your chest at the college. However, becoming inhumane is another domain entirely. </p>
<p>Oh - I don’t know about that. Honestly, my college (top tier) doesn’t even send out promotional materials even when I request them. They don’t recruit beyond a smattering of informational sessions because they don’t have to. Students are on the internet doing research. College counselors are pushing students to apply to a broad range of schools to make the school stats look better and pump up the “scholarship totals” received within the class.</p>
<p>I do know some of the lesser known colleges bombard students (and parents) with information (my mailman was praying for the admissions cycle to end in this household due to the onslaught of unsolicited mail) - but at the competitive level not so much.</p>
<p>In the past few years I’ve been bombarded with inquiries from parents who thought that strong grades and scores were enough to qualify their student and then were shocked when the rejection arrived. One student assumed that they could just show up and be picked because that’s what happens at some of the state schools that are recruiting top students.</p>
<p>But mostly the anger is more about grief, than it is about ego. The decisions may feel like a reflection on that parent. I often wonder why parents don’t research colleges beyond the stat page so they’ll understand that even if all things were equal, there are just …not…enough space…for every student. And that some students with good stats aren’t a good fit for the campus environment. Or that the grades and scores might be overridden by a negative teacher, coach or school recommendation. Or the student botched their interview (if required). </p>
<p>There are many many things outside a parent’s (or student’s) purview that may have resulted in another student getting the slot the former coveted. But in the end, it’s not really a reflection of the student’s value or merit. Perhaps families should go into this thinking of it as more of a lottery than an entitlement. To mediate expectations - especially if they were smart enough to apply to a broad range of colleges - is the best approach. There’s less sting when the envelope arrives.</p>
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<p>Pennsylvania probably deserves a booby prize for the wall of shame in terms of how affordable it makes its state(-related) universities to in-state students. On <a href=“http://www.collegedata.com”>http://www.collegedata.com</a> , searching for public schools with the highest student loan debt produces many Pennsylvania state(-related) universities. Delaware might be a booby prize as well, with all two of its state universities in the highest student loan debt range.</p>
<p>The vitriol is why I think “chance me” threads and the posting of stats once admitted or rejected should be prohibited out here or restricted to private messages only. Intparent nailed it: Unless you sit on the admissions board, you don’t know what decisions are ultimately based on. People need to stop viewing schools as “safety schools” and start viewing all of them as a place you can get a higher education so you can have better quality of life. My only concern is my daughter and what she plans to accomplish. I’d be proud of her if she was going to a community college or if she got a free ride at Oxford university. </p>
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<p>What is wrong with viewing a school as a “safety school”? Being a safety school does not exclude the school as being “a place you can get a higher education so you can have better quality of life”. Indeed, one’s safety school should be such a place, not an unwanted last choice school that is thrown in at the last minute.</p>
<p>Some students’ first choice schools are safety schools for them, so they need only apply to one school (seems anathema to many on these forums, but it happens).</p>
<p>My first child didn’t apply to any “reach” schools and my second one won’t either. What’s the point, if they have matches and safeties they like and that will get them to where they want to go?</p>
<p>I do know some of the lesser known colleges bombard students (and parents) with information (my mailman was praying for the admissions cycle to end in this household due to the onslaught of unsolicited mail) - but at the competitive level not so much.</p>
<p>Our experience has been the opposite. Crapshoot universities love to encourage applications & with the size of their endowments they can afford to contribute to the dead tree toll.
The deluge of mail may convince a student to apply, even if they hadn’t been interested previously.
We didn’t take them seriously.</p>
<p>sally305 - why won’t your kids apply to any reach schools? Not that they should if they don’t like those schools, but it almost sounds like they are just arbitrarily excluding them because they are reach schools.<br>
The point is that some of those reach schools could have better facilities, more course options, more rigorous…Same reason why parents want their high achieving students to be in APs and honors. It great to have few safeties or Plan Bs in life, but I would want my kids to always go for some reaches in life.</p>
<p>@artdandletters,</p>
<p>Your line “Perhaps families should go into this thinking of it as more of a lottery than an entitlement.” Spot on!!!</p>
<p>I have felt this same way for a very long time. I spoke to several adcoms at the Yale/QuestBridge conference last June. I asked them all about this very topic…and they all said that “yes” students who ooze a sense of entitlement & privilege are glaringly obvious. </p>
<p>I also had the great pleasure of meeting an ex UPENN adcom who moved to my city due to a new job. I asked her what matters to them and asked where students fall short. What annoyed them most was this, high stats students that don’t put enough life into their essays. She saw time and time again that students with high stats submitted lackluster essays. Essays matter more than students realize. Students must remember that adcoms are human. </p>
<p>@oldfort: Or they might not. For a family of modest means with a smart kid, the state flagship with honors may be both terrific and cheap, and far be it from me to impose my value judgments and personal utility function on that. But I feel like I read some variation on this fundamental disagreement every week and could save time if we all just agreed to call it “CC Value Disconnect #1” or something similar. </p>
<p>oldfort, I too want my kids to go for reaches in life, and they are. But there is a lot more to life than undergrad, wouldn’t you say?</p>
<p>We knew our first child wanted a small LAC, so we focused on those–and within that category, schools that might offer him merit aid. He was a high-stats kid in high school who took a lot of advanced classes but does not have a competitive bone in his body. Nor is he influenced much by what others think, so the status of college names meant nothing to him.</p>
<p>We did EXTENSIVE research on student qualifications, faculty backgrounds, internship/research opportunities, and outcomes after college and were impressed with what many of these schools could offer our son. We visited all his top choices so we knew firsthand that there were smart, engaged students at each of them. And many of them had beautiful campuses with outstanding facilities. My son cares a lot about attractive architecture, good food, and overall aesthetic appeal so he paid attention to little details.</p>
<p>In the end he chose a college that fits him perfectly. The students are ambitious (in a collaborative way) and intellectually curious. His professors are incredibly accessible and supportive and giving him a lot of personal attention as he finds his way. Even though his high stats helped get him merit, he is NOT cruising through college. His classes are demanding and he has to work hard for his grades. </p>
<p>He is already enjoying opportunities that surpass those of some of his friends at “reachier” schools–this summer he will be spending the summer in Asia studying in a fully funded intensive Mandarin program. (So, there’s a reach right there–this is a competitive program and we were surprised he got in.) A lot of his friends are still coming home and doing odd jobs. </p>
<p>In the case of my second child, she has such specific criteria for what she needs (dance program, not too modern-based, with an ability to double major; also D1 sports) that only a few schools fit and all of them are likely to be academic matches for her. The “reaching” is the auditions, and of course finding a path to being financially successful after college while maintaining her passion for dance.</p>
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<p>And if you think that Yale doesn’t gravitate towards kids who ooze a belief that “I’m so special” I have a bridge to sell you. :)</p>
<p>It just wasn’t Yale! I spoke to several adcoms who stated this same thing…take it for what it’s worth! I am just passing along what each one told me…</p>
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<p>@ucbalumnus: The type of comment that hurts goes along the lines of:
“I can’t believe that I was just rejected by X University! It was my rock bottom safety. I wouldn’t have been caught dead going there anyway. I have two likely letters from Ivies.”</p>
<p>Imagine how that makes a recently accepted student feel for whom this school is their first choice. That quote is a slight embellishment of an actual comment here on CC on a top 50 university thread.</p>
<p>Teenagers are idiots. That’s why they still need parenting. I’m more galled by similar comments you’ll hear from the (alleged) adults. </p>
<p>“Teenagers are idiots. That’s why they still need parenting. I’m more galled by similar comments you’ll hear from the (alleged) adults.”</p>
<p>This. Couldn’t have said it any better myself.</p>
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<p>However, sometimes the student’s preferred and optimal fit happens to be a safety. Why would such a student need to bother looking for reach schools that s/he prefers less than the safety that s/he knows s/he will be admitted to and be able to afford?</p>
<p>No reason at all, but at the same time lets not call students who want more idiots. My siblings and I were such idiots 30 years ago, and my father took out second and third mortgages for us. Without his stupidity, we wouldn’t be where we are today. </p>
<p>Kids don’t like being told that they aren’t special, especially when that is what they have been hearing their whole life. Likewise, parents don’t like hearing that their kid isn’t special.</p>
<p>But oldfort, there isn’t only one way to “want more.” My kids have high aspirations for themselves but they don’t feel entitled to reach their goals on the backs of their parents if it means us mortgaging our own futures. </p>
<p>You can believe you and your siblings would have been complete and utter failures if not for your father’s financial sacrifices on your behalf, and it is wonderful that you are so grateful to him. But the fact is, you don’t know how your lives would have turned out if you had “only” been able to attend University of Nebraska instead of Princeton or Earlham instead of Amherst. (Obviously, I am making up the schools here–I don’t actually know where you went or even what you do professionally.)</p>