Hi, I have been helping a student with her application process the past couple years and now she’s trying to make her final decision. I told her I would post to parents on CC and get some feedback. She’s really struggling with this decision and may not be able to do accepted student visit days.
Okay, so student plans to major in IR and sciences (med school plans later). The W & M joint programme with St. Andrews, IR program, and I’m looking at whether she’s going to have enough course space to add in the sciences that she’ll need. Her ultimate goal is a career in global health (of course things can change). She’s instate VA and parents have told her not to make money a factor (but possible Med school later…).
U of Notre Dame --LOVED it when she visited (no merit). She’s been on campus many times since she was little since both parents went to UND. She would really like to get more insight as to the student body/life on campus at UND.
And she really liked Davidson too (no merit). She has some GREAT options, but needs some more personal insight on all schools.
Thanks for any and all advice! Pm me if you prefer.
I’m also interested in the response to this thread. My nephew is considering the joint St Andrews/William and Mary program in IR. He applied through St Andrews.
The W&M joint program with St. Andrew’s is a great launching pad for global health careers, and for an in-state student it’s a tremendous bargain (especially with the possibility of med school and its crushing cost). ND & Davidson are terrific schools, but I can’t imagine paying full fare for either given her other option.
@yaupon, do you know if it’s better to apply through W&M or St. Andrews for this? I have heard it’s highly competitive vs. applying, say, into St. Andrews directly without the IR exchange at W&M. Do you have a sense? Seems like an incredible program. Can’t seem to find much info out there about it or even about the reality of St. Andrews admissions and the experience for Americans there – would love to hear any details you or anyone else wishes to share. I assume the feedback will assist OP, too, of course.
Don’t know any students who have done the joint program (it’s fairly new, but you can find some CC threads), but the two students we know who went directly to St. Andrew’s had/are having a phenomenal experience. One is in grad school now at the University of Glasgow. Both were strong HS students who earned IB diplomas, and both were very independent and mature kids. Those are qualities you’d want in a student doing the joint program as well. Admission to St. Andrew’s is slightly less difficult for international students than for UK applicants as the university is seeking the $ that foreign students bring, but it is still highly selective. Most of the US students are in IR or art history.
If you apply to the joint program through W&M, your first year is spent on their campus; applicants through St. Andrew’s spend the first year on that campus, so that would be something to consider. It does appear that fulfilling pre-med requirements would be difficult unless a student goes in with some AP credit and takes summer school coursework.
Thank you, thank you! This is very helpful for this student and I will pass this thread link on to her. Interestingly, this is the second student I have helped that has been admitted to the Jt. program. The last was a male applicant in 2012. I don’t know the accept rates on the programme, but these two students have definitely been the tippy top of their HS in northern VA (same “feeder” school). She does have 11 AP classes, but I think most med schools want the course work while in college and won’t accept the AP credits. Summer course work may be the only option. Tough one…thanks again!
I’m confused. You’re saying that courses taken at St. Andrews would not be accepted by med schools in US? And if courses taken in summer were to be taken at W & M and not at a local cc, then would that be accepted? This student lives in VA. The joint programme is not considered a typical “abroad program”. She would actually be enrolled as a student at both W & M and St. Andrews. I’m not doubting what you are telling me. I’ve seen your posts and know that you know your stuff. Just confirming before I tell my student this advice. thank you.
will the student be able to take ANY courses at St. Andrews toward medical school? My impression is that if student is at St. Andrews for IR, the student will take IR classes. Not sure how much flexibility there is, but I would look into that.
I would also consider if the ultimate goal would (should?) be medical school or an MPH.
Yeah, it much worse from a med school perspective – two years overseas (if I read the website correctly).
Courses taken at St. A will essentially come with an asterisk on the med school app. Taking organic chem over there, for example, will raise a question to the adcom of course rigor. I’m not implying that St. A is easy, but the point is that med Adcoms have no idea on how to compare that transcript vs. someone with an A from UVa, a school and faculty they know well. Thus, adcoms will ‘discount’ an overseas grade.
Summer courses for the premed prereqs also raise a red flag. They are less rigorous and less competitive and adcoms know that with certainty. (The top competition takes the premed prereqs from Sept to May.) Moreover, a student enrolled in summer is not juggling 4 other courses at the same time. The rule of thumb is not to take summer courses, unless you have a really good reason. But even then, take an upper division science course during the year, and ace it.
Doesn’t mean that these are deal killers, but it will mean she has to ace the MCAT.
btw: soccerguy raises a great point: besides psychology or sociology, will the student even be able to enroll in the required science & math classes in St.A? Most premeds will take science classes over three years, just to complete the prereqs. They can be fulfilled in two years, but not sure where St. A fits into that schedule.
btw: cc has a great premed thread. Post your question on it.
Awww, thank you so much for this explanation. Also, thank you to soccer guy. I read through all the classes she’d be taking in IR jt. programme and am in agreement now that I don’t see how this would be possible. I will start looking through the other schools and look at their med school accept rates from undergrad. This has been extremely helpful! thanks.
Don’t bother with the bolded. The rates are meaningless. Include grads or undergrads only? Include offshore/Mexican med schools? Include osteopathic med schools?
And that’s only the numerator. The denominator can be just as bad. For example, a school like Holy Cross has a Committee which writes rec letters. BUT, they only write letters for students that they think have a really good chance of acceptance. So the college essentially limits who can apply (and artificially boost their published acceptance rate.
Sure, one can apply without a Committee rec letter, but med schools will notice if it ain’t in the package…
does she have a “normal” acceptance to W&M also? Like, can she just attend W&M? Or only the joint programme?
W&M is a great school that does very well with medical school placements and also has a top notch undergrad IR program.
I guess what I would consider is that if you want medical school, you do not need an IR degree. Has she looked at a list of classes that she would take for an IR degree? I don’t think a lot of them would be especially relevant to a career doing medical things abroad. Of course she could still take some classes, especially if she has an area of the world that she see’s herself working in.
There are MPH programs with “Global Health” focuses. The coursework you need in undergrad to get into an MPH program is a lot less than what you need for medical school, so if you wanted to go this route, I think that an IR degree into an MPH program is more realistic.
I can’t see where a liberal arts college would fit into plans or IR or global health, so I would rule out any liberal arts college for those plans. Thus either W&M or ND.
With medical school in her plans, Notre Dame without question. Few schools have the success that ND has, and this is documented. 80% acceptance without the filtering of a committee. There are a variety of other sources showing its high standing but I cannot find the links.
Okay, thanks for enlightening me on the med school accept rates. Good to know.
soccerguy, yes she’s been accepted to both W & M and St. Andrews and does not have to accept the joint programme admission offer. She could just go to W & M and major in Bio for instance. I just emailed her last night and she’s also feeling that IR may just be too limiting, or at least this specific programme. Right now, I think she’s actually leaning towards U Notre Dame. This advice has been helpful, so thank you to both you and blue.
@crabby, that’s what she just emailed me last night! I feel like Notre Dame is pushing ahead for her now. I still want her to give Davidson a fair analysis though, and also W & M because of the costs (without taking St. Andrews jt. offer). Thanks for response.
I can guarantee you that that number is not what it seems. Think about it: if it was true, ND would have more premed apps than Hopkins. That number just doesn’t pass the smell test.
While there are plenty of reasons to matriculate to ND, it’s premed placement should not be one of them. Of course, there are plenty of reasons to choose one of the other two – instate tuition? LAC?