<p>Anyone facing the choice between Williams and an Ivy? </p>
<p>What are your considerations? What kind of advice have you heard (and from whom?)</p>
<p>At least 75% of the students choosing between Williams and an Ivy would be better off at Williams. More here:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.ephblog.com/archives/003936.html%5B/url%5D">http://www.ephblog.com/archives/003936.html</a></p>
<p>It's really a matter of personal priorities. As dkane points out, Williams offers better teaching, smaller classes, closer contact with professors, and generally a friendlier, closer environment of smart, well-rounded kids. On the other hand, Ivies offer a weighty name on your resume, a chance to learn from big-name scientists, writers, thinkers, etc. (or, at least, their grad students :-), and the opportunity to network with what will probably be some of our generation's most successful people.</p>
<p>Aside from the generic differences, consider the specifics of Williams against whatever Ivies you're looking at. If it's Harvard vs. Williams, then do you want a beautiful rural town or a bustling major city? What do you want to study, and how strong is that program at each school?</p>
<p>I think it's pretty accurate, though, that at least 75% of Ivy students would probably be better off at a liberal arts college.</p>
<p>Williams (and other LAC) grads routinely get to make this comparison, because they commonly enroll in Ivy graduate or professional schools after leaving college. I know many people who did this, including my wife, who was an instructor at a top Ivy as a grad student (I was a grad student at a highly-rated private university myself, but not an Ivy). </p>
<p>Most of the LAC grads that I know who have gone this route are not terribly impressed with the undergraduate classroom experience at Ivies. In general, the Ivies have top-notch student bodies and top-notch research facilities, but disappointingly, are not top-notch when it comes to teaching effort. It's like the professors and students have an unwritten deal: you don't make life difficult for me, and I won't make it difficult for you. LAC professors, on the other hand, see teaching as their primary responsibility, and are more likely to challenge students to perform at the highest level.</p>
<p>There are certainly academic opportunities available to undergraduates at Ivies (and other researchy universities) that cannot be duplicated at LACs. But most university undergrads don't take advantage of them. As suggested above, they would have been better served at LACs.</p>
<p>On the other hand, my impression is that Ivy students apply an impressive level of effort and enthusiasm to their extracurricular activities. Things like daily newspapers, social organizations (eating clubs, secret societies), athletics (Division I vs. Division III), theater clubs, Winter Carnival Planning, etc. seem much more elaborate at Ivies than at LACs. The Ivy students may not be as challenged by their professors, but they seem to compensate by putting more effort into their extracurriculars.</p>
<p>Thanks for the thoughtful replies. Any others want to chime in?</p>
<p>The relationships with professors are key. Undergrads are able to participate in funded research (with authorship) as early as first year. As a result, strong references for employment/grad study are earned. Pedagogical advantages for the Williams students are well-known, and were referenced in the summary of the November 2005 Harvard Curricular Review: "This challenge is nothing less than a test of the Faculty's commitment to the principles of a liberal education. 'Why should all of the creative and liberating ideas for liberal education be left to the small residential liberal arts colleges?' Peter Gomes has asked, adding: 'With Harvard's resources and opportunities we could be both Harvard University and Williams College.'"</p>
<p>Diana Davis, Williams Class of 2007, wrote her "Ode to Harvard/Williams" after choosing to be an Eph when faced with this same decision four years ago (from Willipedia):</p>
<p>"If Williams had rejected me, I wouldn't be an Eph;
I'd have had to go to Harvard, source of everlasting grief.
I'd be living down in Cambridge, in that hallowed Harvard yard
Where orgueil is the assumption, even more than working hard.
Harvard. I didn't go to Harvard.
I didn't go to Harvard. I didn't go to Harvard. </p>
<p>In this 1600 mecca, they all worship the AP;
A four-point-oh is not enough; they've all got four-point-three.
My jacket would have ve-ri-tas emblazoned on the chest
So that everyone who saw me would know that I was the best.
Harvard. I didn't go to Harvard.
I didn't go to Harvard. I didn't go to Harvard.</p>
<p>My "small" classes would be forty; my "professors" all TA's,
And who would care if during class my eyes would often glaze?
I'd try real hard to find my niche, but even when I did,
I'd still be what Ross Baird called "just another Harvard kid."
Harvard. I didn't go to Harvard.
I didn't go to Harvard. I didn't go to Harvard.</p>
<p>When I say I go to Williams, people blink and say, "um -- where?"
But if you say you go to Harvard, you just get an awestruck stare.
Some kids will go and hate it; they'll spend four years being glum;
But it's worth it when you graduate, 'cause then you're an alum!
Then down the road, when someone asks you where you went to school
You can say you went to Harvard and make him look like a fool.
Harvard. I didn't go to Harvard.
I didn't go to Harvard. I didn't go to Harvard.</p>
<p>But I can't -- I go to Williams: land of mountains, fields, and trees,
Where the smog and smoke of cities never interrupts the breeze;
Where our uniforms are purple and we proudly sport the cow;
Where for discussions, nineteen is the most that they allow;
Where my lecture class is fifty; my professor knows my name,
And everyone I meet seems genuinely glad they came.
Harvard. I didn't go to Harvard.
I didn't go to Harvard. I didn't go to Harvard.</p>
<p>So when they send you your certificate to hang upon the wall,
Know that Williams over Harvard is an easy judgment call.
Although I know that any school I go to, I will love,
I'd rather spend my life somewhere that fits me like a glove.
Williams. I go to Williams."</p>
<p>I think it really depend on personal taste. Both the Ivies and LAC such as Williams and Amherst can give you great education and preparation for the future. I chose to go for the Ivies because, as superficial as it sounds, I want people to know the name of the school that I worked hard to get into, and I also like big universities with many courses to choose from. However, you may find you really like the smaller schools. Again, if you are fine with people saying, "Oh. I see. It's O.K. It's just college." everytime you respond to them asking where you went for college, go for the LACs if you'd like.</p>
<p>Unless I'm mistaken you're choosing between Williams, Middlebury, and Dartmouth, which is considerably more LAC-like than, say, Penn or Harvard. All three are excellent schools, but I think it's a mistake to put it as "LAC vs. Ivy" without specifying which.</p>
<p>My son is trying to transfer out of an Ivy into Williams. He has not had a good educational experience (social was great) at his Ivy.</p>
<p>Why doesn't your son give his Ivy a bit more time? What makes him think that Williams will be a better fit than his ivy?</p>
1 Like
<p>Knew a friend at Colgate (though it Colgate "University", it's really a LAC with an undergrad focus) transfer out to Harvard after his freshmen year. He found himself back at Colgate after a semester at Harvard, citing his poor experience with the quality of the academics compared to Colgate's. </p>
<p>I also have two friends (brothers) turning down Yale to attend Middlebury next year. </p>
<p>I'm not trying to say that Colgate is a better school than Harvard or Middlebury is better than Yale, or Amherst is better than any other Ivy. I'll be attending Middlebury and probably wouldn't get into Yale (then again, there aren't many people who can say they'll probably get into Yale), but I sincerely believe the quality of the education at these small schools surpasses that of an education you'd get at most of the Ivy league schools. Actually, I'll be more specific...I think for SOME or MOST people it would be a better education, but there are certainly those folks who flourish in a University setting and get a fabulous education. </p>
<p>I can certainly see why someone would want to transfer into Williams out of an Ivy. They'll be surrounded by students of the same caliber, but they'll also have professors whose priority is to teach and work with them. Again, I'm not saying you're going to get lifeless drones at Harvard who don't care about teaching their undergraduates, but at Williams, everyone member of the faculty is there because they WANT to teach and interact with students, and you'll have more of an opportunity to get to know some incredible people on a personal level.</p>
<p>Mikey- long story, but a year at $45K is plenty of time. He feels his current school is not intellectual and is a trade school. He is disappointed in the fact that the frat scene is so huge. His classes have not been good and there isn't an adult on campus who knows who he is- and he is a VERY visible person (not always in good ways.....) He finds the city distracting and a pain in the a$$. He is very independent and knows exactly what he wants- just is trying to figure out where it is. Maybe Williams. Maybe Chicago. Maybe Brown. But NOT the Ivy where he is right now.</p>
<p>Hmmphh.. well best wishes to him. Has he been in contact with any of the coaches?</p>
<p>As the above posts show, the Ivies are not all alike, and I think it's a mistake to assume that there's any way to compare Williams to an entire group like that.</p>
<p>
[quote]
My "small" classes would be forty; my "professors" all TA's,
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I'm a Williams alum, and I have an S who's a junior in h.s. who I hope will get into and attend Williams. That said, I also have a D, who's having an incredibly wonderful year as a freshman at Harvard, and it bothers me to no end to see quotes like this used to defend someone's choice to go to Williams or another LAC over Harvard.</p>
<p>I realize that the author of that statement took some liberties in order to make her piece work, but I think it's unfair and inaccurate to use that sort of thing to help someone to discern the real differences between the schools. In my D's freshman year at Harvard, out of 8 classes, she's had three that had 15 or fewer students. That's actually more small classes than I had in my freshman year at Williams. None of her professors have been T.A.s. Professors teach her courses and hold office hours to meet with students. T.A.s (or more accurately, T.F.s) run the sections that are in addition to the lectures. In one of her larger classes, a philosophy one with perhaps 45 students, she received two full pages of written comments -- from the professor, not the TF -- on a two-page paper. She has received personal emails from professors, including one first semester, when the professor was concerned that she had not been her usual cheerful self when he had talked to her after class and just wanted to make sure she was okay. Her math professor has pulled her aside after class (a bigger class of maybe 50 to 60 students) to talk to her about a type of problem he noticed her having some difficulty with. </p>
<p>Is Harvard perfect? Of course not. Is Harvard the right school for everyone? Of course not. Are there people who would thrive better at an LAC? Of course, and I think my S may be one of them. But in making the choice between Harvard and another school, it's a good idea to base that choice on facts and not on inaccurate hyperbole.</p>
<p>"it's a good idea to base that choice on facts and not on inaccurate hyperbole."</p>
<p>I would hope you would give someone lucky enough to have that choice some credit for choosing intelligently -- and not based solely on another student's poem.</p>
<p>Sorry, but if the student's poem were the only place I had ever seen this kind of thing mentioned, I wouldn't have felt the need to comment. It's very common for supporters of LACs to exaggerate their benefits compared to certain larger schools. I'm a fan of LACs myself, and there's plenty to recommend them that requires no exaggeration. </p>
<p>As for students being able to choose intelligently, I'm not suggesting there would be anything deficient about the intelligence of those students who have a choice between Harvard and Williams, but it is very hard sometimes to separate the facts from the rumors and bashing and to separate isolated anecdotes from more typical experiences. If no one challenges the unfounded rumors and bashing, they come to be accepted, and I was only seeking to address that.</p>
<p>one reason to pick an ivy over williams is diversity. columbia, for example, is more diverse than williams, and although williams is an awesome school, being a student of color i personally want a school that's more diverse</p>
<p>Anecdotal evidence and mediocre poetry aside, there are some pretty definitive academic differences between the Ivies (or other research universities) and LACs like Williams.</p>
<p>(1) Williams can guarantee undergraduates that TAs won't run discussion sections, grade their work, oversee labs, etc.</p>
<p>(2) Williams can guarantee undergraduates the availability of upper-level tutorials where student enrollment is capped at two.</p>
<p>(3) Williams can guarantee that undergraduates have top priority when it comes to involvement with faculty research projects.</p>
<p>The Ivies can't match schools like Williams in these regards, and they're not even trying to catch up.</p>
<p>The classroom experience isn't the only consideration, and Ivies may have the advantage in other respects (name recognition, extracurricular activites, diversity, breadth of offerings, etc.). </p>
<p>But if your number one consideration is undergraduate-level academics, then it only makes sense to pick a college that has the exact same priority.</p>
<p>I want to call BS on nceph. </p>
<p>1) He claims that in 3 out of 8 classes, there are 15 or fewer students. Fine. You can bet the other 5 are big lectures with no meaningful interaction between the vast majority of students and the professor.</p>
<p>2) He claims that none of the three small classes is run by a TA. Fine. But not everyone who is "not a T.A." is a tenure track member of the faculty. Harvard has a huge population of poorly paid, overworked non-T.A. lecturers (and other categories). How many of these three small classes are taught by "real" faculty (tenure or tenure track)?</p>
<p>3) He tells some nice stories that probably have only a limited connection to reality. A Harvard philosophy professor wrote two pages of comments on a two page paper?! Maybe. How much did he write on all her other papers? How much did he write about the papers for the 45(!) other students in the class?</p>
<p>4) Key question: How many tenured/tenure-track faculty would know his daughters name if they met on the street? How many total words of commentary have they written on her work? How many total words of questions/answers/conversation has she shared with them over the year. That is the guts of an education.</p>
<p>5) Even if, by some miracle, his daughter is actually having non-trivial interactions with Harvard faculty, how representative is her experience compared to other Harvard students? From <em>everything</em> I know about Harvard (and I had lunch in Eliot House today), his description is a complete outlier compared to that of the typical undergraduate at Harvard.</p>
<p>There are some good reasons to choose Harvard over Williams. The quality of the undergraduate education is not one of them.</p>
<p>Why do some of you necessarily give students/others credit for "intelligent" evaluation of such a choice? I've heard many professors at other schools (neither IVY nor LAC) give unnuanced recommendations to just go for the "brand name" of an Ivy (without much reasoning beyond that). And these are academics....it would make a student think that if half of the academics (not just average joes on the street) value and recommend the Ivy brand name over the LAC, then why go the less well-known route to LAC?
Relative to grad school admissions, even top grad school professors have said that while the LAC vs Ivy decision is mostly a toss-up, an undergrad who really stands out in a larger Ivy may be seen as that much more special to top grad school adcoms.
What I'm saying is that the advice can be very mixed - even from sources who are credentialed in academia.</p>