<p>W&M cannot be a peer of UNC because it’s an entirely different animal. UNC’s peers are other top state universities with a broad range of programs and research strong. W&M is more a peer of Richmond, Davidson and other good Southern mostly liberal arts colleges without large grad schools.</p>
<p>Barrons, you’re distorting my words. I didn’t say they were institutional peers. I said they were academic peers, my point being that the academic reputation of one isn’t quantifiably better than the other. Of course they’re not peer institutions, which is why I just said it’s all about fit.</p>
<p>You reject SATs as a measure of intelligence yet pull out the statistically unusable Rhodes argument? I can tell arguing tangibles is going to get us nowhere. So, generally speaking, just let me say that I believe W&M is considered one of the best public schools, if not the best, for undergraduate academics (on the general CC boards they had trouble deciding between Berkeley and W&M). UNC is considered one of the best all round universities for everything from sports to undergraduate education and graduate studies.</p>
<p>I’m not rejecting SATs as a measure of intelligence per se. I’m saying that even considering SATs the difference here doesn’t mean much. As for the Rhodes, well, the fact is that they don’t just hand them out at schools that don’t have superb academic reputations. </p>
<p>Again, it’s all about fit. And on that topic the OP should know that both UNC and William and Mary get a lot more female applications than males, but only UNC has expressly disavowed taking gender into account in admissions decisions. The result is that there are a lot more women at UNC undergrad than there are at William and Mary. The OP might want to take this into account in thinking about fit.</p>
<p>
Well, golly, novaparent - how shall we compare student bodies, if it’s “dubious” to consider SAT scores, which is usually the lone objective criterion applied in the admissions process?</p>
<p>I completely agree that, for this and every applicant, it’s all about fit; also that these excellent state universities are peer institutions in terms of academics. I’m math and statistics challenged, so I don’t really understand how “for every high SAT score you can find at William and Mary you can probably find two at UNC” when the 25th/75th percentiles at W & M are 60/70 points higher than UNC’s. (What do we mean by a “high” score here, anyway?) One applicant who scores 70 points higher than another is usually not said to have “slightly” higher SAT scores. W & M’s 75th CR/M percentile scores of 2160 are at the 98th percentile nationally; UNC’s 75th CR/M percentile scores of 2080 are at the 96th. Neither score is too shabby, and students at both institutions are likely to be talented and committed to their studies.</p>
<p>If W & M’s student body consisted of 18 percent OOS students instead of 35 percent, of course it would be even more selective than it already is. I don’t see how that makes UNC superior - it’s a legislative decision to set the percentage of students from OOS.</p>
<p>I never said UNC was superior, and I never said it’s dubious to consider SAT scores generally when comparing student bodies.</p>
<p>What I said was that it’s dubious to make the case that William and Mary “has smarter students” than UNC on the basis of the test scores for these two particular institutions. The range isn’t that great. Remember that even the college board now reports SAT scores in ranges of 100, recognizing that a student’s actual aptitude could be 50 points above or below what he or she scores on test day.</p>
<p>The average SAT score at UNC is about 1300 even. It’s maybe 50 points higher at William and Mary. Big woop. This could just as easily be attributable to William and Mary having a wealthier student body. Everyone knows that there’s a high correlation between SAT scores and family income, and William and Mary costs a lot more than UNC.</p>
<p>^^^ Is that how there can probably be two high SAT scorers at UNC for every one we find at W & M? If we consider the 100-point range instead of the actual scores, I mean?</p>
<p>Fine to say that a slight difference doesn’t matter. But stating that there are probably twice as many high-scorers at UNC just doesn’t seem to jive with the numbers at all.</p>
<p>You’re being too literal. It’s not precisely two to one, ok? The point is that there are many, many students at UNC with very high SAT scores, and that the school has a very bright student body. </p>
<p>I just went back and looked, and by my calculation of the numbers reported by each school, there were around 975 entering freshmen at UNC who had a 700 or over on creative reading, while the corresponding number for William and Mary is 575. Not quite 2 to 1, but pretty darn close.</p>
<p>Off the argumentative posturing, but UNC really is utilizing their waitlist. A friend’s son was accepted on Friday. He was heading to NC State so truly excited to wear Carolina Blue!</p>
<p>There are many students at every state flagship with excellent SAT scores. That doesn’t prove your point. This isn’t even apples to oranges – it’s apples to carrots. What’s “better” is what the student prefers in terms of atmosphere.</p>
<p>When most people with some knowledge of academe discuss academic peers they mean much more than SAT scores. If you asked the UNC President to name UNC’s peers I’d bet W&M would not be on the list. And I would win.</p>
<p><a href=“http://oira.unc.edu/institutional-effectiveness/institutional-performance-measures/unc-system-defined-peer-group.html[/url]”>http://oira.unc.edu/institutional-effectiveness/institutional-performance-measures/unc-system-defined-peer-group.html</a></p>
<p>[UNC</a> searches for peer institutions | dailytarheel.com](<a href=“http://www.dailytarheel.com/content/unc-searches-peer-institutions]UNC”>http://www.dailytarheel.com/content/unc-searches-peer-institutions)</p>
<p>
Ah, my great failing - here and elsewhere. Thanks for the straighten-out on the SAT scores thing. 975 out of 3960 (UNC) vs. 575 out of 1395 (W & M) means that, wherever you go on either campus, you’re going to run into a considerable number of freshmen with high scores. At either campus, a student probably won’t feel at home unless he/she has a track record of academic success.</p>
<p>For the benefit of any newcomers following this thread - please know that novaparent and barrons are usually not feeling the W & M love. And most of the student posters, and the parent posters who have students at W & M, usually are. Not that it’s really hard to tell the players without a scorecard around here.</p>
<p>And it’s even more rare for us to be on the same side more or less. Must mean something.</p>
<p>Nothing left to squabble about on the UW board?</p>
<p>Not much…</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>all good reasons. You would do well to consider them. It is where you are going to spend the next 4 years of your life.</p>
<p>If you want to drink four nights a week, you can do that at W&M. We also beat UVA in football last year, and should’ve had a home game in the NIT against UNC.</p>
<p>If one of the campuses gives you the “this is where I want to be” feeling when you are wandering around, I would go there.</p>
<p>I will say that I was looking for a school with big time sports, but ultimately I found the sports scene at W&M quite enjoyable. You don’t have to worry about getting tickets (or pay for them), which is a plus.</p>
<p>good luck! I hope you stay at W&M =P</p>
<p>Woah, I really appreciate the lively discussion going on here. Definitely giving me some things to think about. </p>
<p>I’m probably flying down to Chapel Hill on Monday, as I have to decide whether or not I plan to attend by June 9th…</p>
<p>Money is a concern, and I just express mailed all of my financial aid verification forms today, so according to UNC I should have a financial aid offer by the 4th. If UNC ends up being substantially cheaper I may find myself there regardless of how I form my opinion down at Chapel Hill.</p>
<p>I won’t lie, I find UNC more enticing every day. I will have to make my final decision when I go down there.</p>
<p>As an aside, does anyone know the acceptance rate of UNC for OOS students compared to WM? I know that I am the only kid at my school accepted at UNC out of 20 or so kids that applied. I even know a girl who is going to Columbia who was rejected at UNC…</p>
<p>UNC is really hard to get into out of state, not that it matters. In my high school we had a couple rejected from Duke and Northwestern who got into UNC. I know the kids from my high school who went there love it to no end.</p>
<p>Have to agree with swish re these schools. Frazzled’s numbers actually proved his point re the disparity in student body make up. In terms of percentages, W&M is about 2:1 ahead of UNC. I think hawkette had some figures on how deep the quality of a schools student body is.</p>
<p>As far as the comment re Rhodes scholarship, I think the vast majority came from Morehead students, which is essentially buying top students since they are normally not considering the school without $$$. Nothing wrong with that but it is telling.</p>
<p>Look, I’m not disparaging William and Mary’s academics one iota. It’s an excellent school full of top students. I’m just disputing that its academic reputation is “better” than UNC or that its students are “smarter.” In both instances I think it’s a toss up. Sure, SAT scores at William and Mary are higher on average, but it’s a smaller school and SAT scores aren’t an exact science – they are highly correlated with family income, for example, which is higher at William and Mary. Also, boys tend to do better on SATs but have lower high school grades, and William and Mary favors boys (or, depending on your point of view, discriminates against girls) in admissions. </p>
<p>Finally, I think the suggestion that UNC is more of a “suitcase” school is patently ridiculous. You can’t argue on the one hand that UNC is all about sports, partying and fun while William and Mary is all about academics and then argue on the other hand that UNC is a suitcase school and William and Mary is all about weekends! C’mon now.</p>
<p>On the OOS state admissions question, William and Mary is highly competitive but nowhere near that of UNC because of the 18 percent enrollment cap. And on the cost factor, UNC’s estimated OOS cost is about 9000 a year less than William and Mary (45k versus 36k) – not chump change. </p>
<p>If these views make me a William & Mary basher, then so be it. I’m certainly being no less objective than any William & Mary booster. The OP is better informed by getting all views.</p>