WM vs. UNC Chapel Hill?

<p>novaparent, remarks posted were not at all meant to be disparaging against UNC which does have a very faithful and energetic student body and alumni base. It was simply providing another factor to consider that hadn’t yet been mentioned and it’s an important factor for most out-of-state students considering going to an out-of-state public institution. I was simply suggesting that one ask about in-state: out-of-state ratios at both schools and whether or not either had a suitcase or commuter campus feel. Since the student asking the question had a lot of questions about fit I was suggesting another element of fit to consider.</p>

<p>Your suggestion would make sense if the student was trying to decide between William and Mary versus George Mason, maybe, but not William and Mary versus UNC. Would you ever suggest that UC-Berkeley, UT-Austin, or (for barrons’ benefit) UW-Madison have “commuter” feels simply because they have a lower OOS enrollment than William and Mary? North Carolina is a large state with a large and diverse population, including many newcomers.</p>

<p>UNC is not a suitcase school at all. In fact, its a great large, public, research State U, with big time sports and Greek system. It is not a peer to W&M. Closer to UCLA. W&M is closer to Brown. Smart kids at both. Completely different feel. Up to the OP as to which is best.</p>

<p>Well, look at that, swish and I agree! I just thought it an odd comment for the admissions people to suggest that UNC is more of a “suitcase” school. Earlier they said something about UC-Berkeley having more resources because it was “private” school. Equally odd.</p>

<p>By the way, UNC may not consider William and Mary to be a peer but William and Mary disagrees:</p>

<p>[William</a> & Mary - Peer Institutions](<a href=“http://www.wm.edu/about/administration/provost/forfacstaff/peerinstitutions/index.php]William”>http://www.wm.edu/about/administration/provost/forfacstaff/peerinstitutions/index.php)</p>

<p>Certainly a more eclectic list than most lists of peers. Marquette??? Clemson??? Did they pick those at random?</p>

<p>Been following this thread a bit- interesting and informative info from many perspectives. </p>

<p>Getting back to something that barrons brought up re: the impact on education that WM students may see vs. other states (like UNC) because of the cutbacks in VA state funding. Where do you all see WM cutting the most in terms of what will directly impact the students? Have any current students/parents have any information to share? Class sizes, offerings? </p>

<p>One of the reasons I ask is that a neighbor of my parents has a daughter that did not graduate in May- told my mom that she needed to go one more semester in order to get classes she was unable to during her normal four years. I don’t know the particulars but I wonder will this scenario become more prevalent? Will WM’s size and lack of a large alumni $ base hurt them more than say a UVA or VT?</p>

<p>The Commonwealth of Virginia has been cutting funding to Virginia state colleges for as long as I’ve lived here (20+ years). What barrons describes is nothing new. State colleges have responded by raising tuition well beyond the rate of inflation, something that also isn’t likely to stop any time soon. Both U-Va and William and Mary just announced 10 percent increases; VCU just announced a 24 percent increase. One way or another the schools will get their money. </p>

<p>U-Va is one of only two public universities in the United States (UT-Austin being the other) that has been given the highest bond rating possible by all three rating agencies. It is thus well recognized as doing an unparalled job managing its finances in the face of state budget cuts. It’s not about to run out of money any time soon, barrons’ comments notwithstanding. William and Mary doesn’t have the endowment that U-Va does, but it too is managing to hold its own. I wouldn’t base a decision to attend William and Mary on short term state funding issues.</p>

<p>W&M also has a larger per capita endowment, and alumni base is not significantly different per capita, I’d imagine (or would even favor W&M over more recently founded schools). So little of the school operating budget already comes from Richmond that further cuts just can’t be that big or have much of a future effect, if anymore cuts are even necessary. I’m sure NC has had their own problems. W&M has made cuts mostly in the administrative areas which don’t directly effect students, and is even considering a campus wide raise next year. No professors have been laid off or failed to be rehired due to lack of funds. In fact, W&M is in the middle of its largest building boom since the late 60s when “new” campus was built with a brand new gargantuan business school, expanded physics building, new science center, a renovated psychology building, a new lacrosse/soccer stadium, a new career center, a new dorm complex (or two), the English building is in the middle of renovation (its birthday present for 100 years of service) with more buildings in line to get fixed up. The only effect on students seems to be the 9% tuition raise this summer (on top of more minor raises last year) which is much less than what other Virginia and national universities are being forced to do.</p>

<p>Regarding your neighbor, the only times I ever hear of people not graduating on time is if they are trying to double major in some of the most intense programs that require a lot of credits (i.e. International Relations and Neuroscience), if they fail a course as a senior, or if they switch their major as an upperclassman. </p>

<p>And I agree with the sentiment that calling UNC-CH a suitcase school is a gross mischaracterization. Yes, W&M has many more students who stay on campus (and contributes to the strong community) and have a greater percentage of students who are new to the state, but that doesn’t make UNC-CH a suitcase school (which implies that the campus is empty on the weekends).</p>

<p>Here are a few news stories from the “Flat Hat” concerning the budget cuts and impacts</p>

<p>[State</a> cuts funding by 15 percent | Flat Hat News](<a href=“http://flathatnews.com/content/71392]State”>Flat Hat News)</p>

<p>[College</a> budget cuts add another headache to class registration | Flat Hat News](<a href=“http://flathatnews.com/content/69422/college-budget-cuts-add-another-headache-class-registration]College”>College budget cuts add another headache to class registration | Flat Hat News)</p>

<p>[State</a> cuts $4.9 million from College budget | Flat Hat News](<a href=“http://flathatnews.com/content/69071/state-cuts-49-million-college-budget]State”>State cuts $4.9 million from College budget | Flat Hat News)</p>

<p>[Staff</a> Editorial: College must fight budget cuts | Flat Hat News](<a href=“http://flathatnews.com/content/68835/staff-editorial-college-must-fight-budget-cuts]Staff”>Staff Editorial: College must fight budget cuts | Flat Hat News)</p>

<p>Here’s a recent one (May, 2010): [BOV</a> approves tuition increases | Flat Hat News](<a href=“http://flathatnews.com/content/73662]BOV”>http://flathatnews.com/content/73662) </p>

<p>(The first article listed in post 49 is from 2009; the other three are from 2008. Like most other schools, W&M has been raising tuition and trying to limit expenses for several years.)</p>

<p>In a recent email to parents from President Taylor Reveley, he states that the latest tuition increase ($1088 for instate students, $2500 for OOSers) will fund increased need-based financial aid; maintenance and operating expenses for new academic facilities, since VA no longer covers these expenses; increases in health insurance; critical staffing needs; and a state-mandated bonus for employees whose salaries have been frozen for three years. I am a fan of Reveley’s, and my d tells me most students feel the same way about him. I wouldn’t want his job, especially given the financial mess of higher education in general and VA state institutions in particular.</p>

<p>(I used to work for the president of a Jesuit college, whose favorite joke was about the college president who died and went to hell and it was three days before he realized it.)</p>

<p>UNC has Gene Nichol… feel free to decide for yourselves if that is a plus or minus</p>

<p>I don’t think they have let any faculty go, so I don’t think it should impact students too much. Of course, they can lose faculty to higher paying jobs elsewhere, but a lot of schools are having the same issues as W&M and the state of VA</p>

<p>KandKsmom… that seems weird. If you need the entire extra semester, you probably didn’t plan correctly. If you just need one class, then I’m sure that could’ve been worked out and it could’ve been taken during the 8th semester.</p>

<p>Great feedback for the OP and for those of us w/ hschoolers thinking about WM and UNC.<br>
Thanks to all taking time to reply. Good to hear about the scheduling/class needs issue not being too much of an issue. Soccerguy, now that you mention it, it could be that my mom’s neighbor is doing two programs-IR is one that I know of. </p>

<p>I just hope that our state gets a handle on these hikes in tuition and costs. While I think we VA residents are still offered great options, both financially and academically, with our state schools, if the costs continue to rise it isn’t going to be quite as clear cut of a plan to go the in state route as it used to be and that is a shame. Seeing 20K+ a year to send kids to a state university is an eye opener. </p>

<p>To the OP, hope I haven’t hijacked your thread in any way. Good luck in your decision!</p>

<p>Again, not trying to imply anything about UNC and whether or not it has a suitcase campus feel. Just pointing out that many students who go to public universities out-of-state should be asking questions about in-state to out-of-state ratios and whether or not that affects campus life. It can be overwhelming for any student to to to an out-of-state public university and the make-up of the student body geographically may have an impact on fit or feeling of comfort at the school.</p>

<p>If in a previous post UC-Berkeley was referred to as private than that was a clear typo on my part.</p>

<p>As for budget cuts at state institutions W&M has always made it a priority to make these cuts as invisible to students as possible (with the exception of tuition increases). Programs aren’t cut, class sizes aren’t increased or are increased minimally, etc. Graduation rates and ability to graduate in four years have not been affected by the budget cuts. For the most part the impact is felt more by faculty/staff in the form of wage freezes and such. And W&M has definitely amped up its fundraising efforts. In fact, last year W&M had its most successful giving year ever despite the depressed economy.</p>

<p>W&M Admissions, what percentage of undergraduates at William and Mary come from Virginia and North Carolina combined? I have a hunch that we’re talking 3/4s if not more. And how is that all that different from UNC? In other words, especially to a New Yorker like the one asking the question here, are North Carolinians really all that different from Virginians? </p>

<p>I’m not trying to argue. I’m merely saying that the in state/OOS ratio between these two particular schools is truly a trivial distinction – especially for this particular poster.</p>

<p>

</p>

<p>As a matter of fact, they are. As a southern Virginian who attended W&M, my friends from Northern Virginia seemed to be from another state. They were much more like my friends from Maryland, Pennsylvania, New York and New Jersey than my friends from the rest of Virginia (except for Prince William County.)</p>

<p>I don’t think that many North Carolineans come to Virginia for College. The largest OOS students come from NJ, NY, MA, and PA I believe, and I don’t think any individual one of those is above 3% of the student population, so it clearly cannot be 3/4ths if only 2/3rds of the students are from instate (and even then, VA, like NC, is quite diverse. Blacksburg =/= Arlington). It is a sizable and statistically significant difference, but you are correct in that it is up to the poster to determine what importance that it has for him.</p>

<p><a href=“http://www.wm.edu/offices/registrar/documents/catalog/Prior-Year-Catalogs/07-08UGCatalog.pdf[/url]”>http://www.wm.edu/offices/registrar/documents/catalog/Prior-Year-Catalogs/07-08UGCatalog.pdf&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>Go to page 241 of the PDF file to see the geographic origin of students attending W&M in Fall 2006. 2006 was the most recent year I found, the W&M student body hasn’t changed much in this regard.</p>

<p>There were only 65 kids from NC attending W&M. Which sounds right because I think I only know one kid at W&M from NC.</p>

<p>The largest OOS populations:</p>

<p>1) New Jersey - 272
2) Pennsylvania - 256
3) Maryland - 201
4) NY - 192
5) Connecticut - 100
6) Mass - 99</p>

<p>The only states to send 100+ kids to W&M are all from the northeast. Also at least a third of the VA kids are from Northern VA, which is basically the northeast in terms of culture. </p>

<p>UNC is 88% North Carolinians. W&M is ~60% from the Northeast (counting NoVA as the Northeast). There probably is a significantly different feel of the student body.</p>

<p>Also, the two student bodies seem to have the same racial makeup - so that shouldn’t be a factor. </p>

<p>UNC has approximately 14% of students receiving Pell grants while W&M has 7-8%. So a bit more economic diversity at UNC, though 14% is still really low for a state school. I also have a feeling this demographic doesn’t matter much to the OP.</p>

<p>Overall, W&M student body is mostly people from the Northeast. Whereas UNC’s is 88% North Carolinian. That’s a significant difference that the OP should be aware of.</p>

<p>You mean UNC is 82 percent North Carolinian, not 88.</p>

<p>Take it from a Northeast native now living in NOVA – they are not the same thing. More than that, many of the counties that William and Mary and other Virginia state colleges consider NOVA (as determined by SCHEV, Virginia’s higher education commission) are far removed from Washington, D.C. and have a distinct southern feel to them that you’re not going to find in New York. The same might even be said about the western and southern parts of close-in Fairfax County! It’s really only once you’re inside the beltway do you find something close to what might be a northeast flavor. </p>

<p>Similarly, NC has for years been one of the fastest growing states in the country and is now among the top ten largest in terms of population. It’s a big state both in terms of area and population, and many of its newcomers are from, you guessed it, the northeast. </p>

<p>You really can’t define what people are like either by the state where they’re currently living or by what region in Virginia William and Mary and other Virginia state colleges consider them to be from. The key point is that both William and Mary and UNC are excellent state schools in the south with distinctly southern feels but plenty of northerners; both have lots of school spirit and active social scenes; and neither has a distinct advantage over the other when it comes to non-southerners or out of staters “feeling at home.”</p>

<p>Seems that the budget Grinch has hit North Carolina too. In the long run no state has all the money it would like to spend. Still worthwhile to keep track of how individual schools are doing in this regard.</p>

<p>[House</a> budget cuts UNC funds - Local - TheSunNews.com](<a href=“http://www.thesunnews.com/2010/05/28/1499540/house-budget-cuts-unc-funds.html]House”>http://www.thesunnews.com/2010/05/28/1499540/house-budget-cuts-unc-funds.html)</p>

<p>Previous posters have already addresses which states outside of Virginia are the most represented at W&M. North Carolina is not among them likely because they also have a fabulous public higher education system that keeps many students in-state although we do get a a good number of students from NC each year.</p>

<p>I also appreciate the previous posters’ comments about diversity with VA. VA is far from a homogenous state given the difference between the western parts of the state, the NOVA area, and Hampton Roads. Both NOVA and Hampton Roads are home to many families who due to military or foreign service have lived all over the world and that allows W&M to have a student body with very diverse perspectives even though 2/3 come from the same state.</p>

<p>W&M definitely has students with “southern” backgrounds/cultures but most would argue it lacks a “southern feel” due to the diversity of the student population it attracts both from within and outside of VA.</p>

<p>Certainly the in-state/out-of-state ratio may be trivial to some applicants whereas it might be quite important to others. Definitely depends on the student and what they’re looking for and how comfortable they are going away from home for college. It’s just one of many factors to consider in our humble opinion.</p>