words of wisdom wanted

College Search & Selection
1

<p>I have been reading CC since mid-March and wish I had found it sooner! My d is one of the kids that aimed high and got disappointed, and I felt so guilty that I didn't realize how competitive it is out there. She got rejected from Harvard and Duke (one of my alma maters, grrr) and waitlisted at Cornell (my other alma mater, so much for the legacy thing) Wash. U, and Northwestern. Her only acceptances were at U.Tenn. in the Honors Program, and George Mason in the Scholar's program, both of which offered full tuition plus. After a visit to both schools she decided on Mason, but with little enthusiasm. She met John Sigenthaler, the head of the First Amendment Center and a grad of her high school, and arranged for an internship there. All seemed ok.</p>

<p>But two days after sending the deposit to Mason she got a call from Wash U.
Off the waitlist! But, probably no financial or merit $. After the initial elation the sober reality of 40K/yr vs. 5K is hitting home. While we can probably swing it, it will mean austerity for a few yrs, and she has a brother coming along in 3 yrs. I am wondering how anyone here has handled this type of choice, and how much value there is in going to your first choice school even though another school offers much more? Is Wash U way better than George Mason? Her major will probably be political science or biology, and she most likely will want grad school, maybe law. I value so much of what I've read here! Any words of wisdom are welcome.</p>

<p>I have to say this whole experience has been very humbling!</p>

2

<p>Go to Wash U. The financial burden will pay off in due time. Plus, it is not too late to apply for scholarships or pell grants.</p>

3

<p>Is it possible for her to get financial aid in later years at Wash U? Is the reason that she probably can't get aid this year because she came off the wait list or is the reason that she doesn't qualify for much aid?</p>

<p>How important was financial aid to you when she applied? I ask because if she applied knowing that she wouldn't qualify for much need based aid, I assume that you'd have been willing to bite the bullet and pay big bucks for her to attend a place like Harvard or Duke (which has some lavish merit scholarships, but those go only to a very few students -- the type that have Harvard acceptances in hand). If that's the case, then I think that you should encourage her to go to Wash U.</p>

<p>Out of fairness, I think that you also should be willing to do the same kind of austerity plan to send her brother to his university of choice assuming that he's a hard working student who'd take advantage of the academics at the university that he chooses. If he's the type who'd chose a pricey school due to its climate or social life, then I don't think that you should feel obligated to make the same kind of sacrifices for him.</p>

<p>Meanwhile, everything that I have read indicates that Wash U is a far better college than is George Mason. </p>

<p>If your D was talking about going into journalism, it could be a good choice particularly with her Sigenthaler and First Amendment connection.</p>

<p>If D.C. politics and connections are important to her, then George Mason would be the best option.</p>

<p>Otherwise, though, Wash U would be the better choice.</p>

4

<p>Northstarmom is right about the D.C./U.S. politics connection issues, and her internship sounds like a great opportunity. But Wash U. is a much, much better school overall!! George Mason started out as a commuter school extension of UVA in the suburbs of DC. It is now entirely separate, and has built up its residential numbers. But it is very much in the shadow of UVA, William & Mary, Virginia Tech, etc. in terms of state universities in Virginia--still struggling for greater respect. They have come a long way, and have some great faculty--but isn't there yet.</p>

<p>Wash U. has it all over GMU for biology--and really all of their programs are outstanding compared to GMU. But it could always be the grad school choice.</p>

<p>Sorry about your d's admissions experience--it was a brutal year, and many great kids have been very disappointed!</p>

<p>Good luck with the decision--her undergraduate experience will ultimately be great if she challenges herself, and goes after all the opportunities that are available to her--then go to an outstanding grad school!!</p>

5

<p>This is a very tough question. If graduate school is her goal, I would try to look ahead a little bit. Is her goal a Ph.D in politics? It's hard to see how good grades and high board scores would stop her even with a B.A. from George Mason. OTOH, my mom always said that the worst way to spend money is on something you really don't like. If D has visited the WUSTL campus and it was always one of her top choices, that in itself might make it worth the tuition differential. But, if she's just trying to salvage her self-respect, I would think a bit before concluding that it's worth an extra $35,000 a year. WUSTL is a fantastic research university, but, for some strange reason, it doesn't have much more buzz than say, Tufts or Emory, IMO.</p>

6

<p>i would give johnwesley's advice a really hard look. for example, my assistant debate coach from last year was a junior at GMU on a full ride (she actually got paid $$ b/c she worked for the debate team). she is originally from Kansas and turned down UPenn and WUSTL among other fine schools because she doesn't want to be in debt before going to law school. i guess her case is a bit different b/c she kicks ass in debate (i think she and her partner broke to NDT as sophomores) and that's definitely going to be a plus on her grad school app.</p>

7

<p>Thank you all for your wise words. We are weighing the pros and cons and hopefully will make a good decision. I feel sure she will thrive wherever she lands; one of the issues is whether she will be a big fish in small (or large!) pond at GMU versus possibly middle of the pack at the more competitive WUSTL. She visited each campus and really liked them both. Met happy kids at both places. I still can't get a feel for whether Wash U. is a top school or overrated. There seems to be many different opinions on this board. I so appreciate the time you have taken to respond to me!</p>

8

<p>OP,</p>

<p>You should check the archives for a very long and robust thread on Honors Programs. Also, try and locate the thread from Evilrobot who made such a choice last year and gave us all an update about a month ago.
Very tough choice. What does your daughter say about the pros and cons of either?</p>

9

<p>A girl in my AP Bio class was telling us about how her dad only went to Kansas State (?) for his undergrad, but then went on to get two master's degrees from Johns Hopkins in medical engineering or something like that. Now, he's raking in the big bucks, and no one cares that he went to a lesser undergrad school.</p>

<p>Just a thought...</p>

10

<p>All of the advice in this thread is very good. This comes up a lot in the CC forums and it could go either way. It is not unusual for someone to give up a more prestigious college in order to get a free ride at a lesser school, particularly when the lesser school has an Honors College.</p>

<p>This was already indicated, but if she is planning on getting a doctorate, the undergrad school won't really affect her career. In academia, the school where you got the PhD is what is important.</p>

<p>There have statistical studies showing that people graduating from the Ivy League make significantly more money than people who don't. However, there have been more recent studies showing that people who are accepted to the Ivy League and decide to go somewhere else make the same money as people who actually graduate from the Ivy League. The point is that certain people are going to be successful no matter where they go to school.</p>

<p>Your D would probably enjoy WUSTL more. I don't think it would make much difference in her career opportunities. Ask about finan aid for successive years as suggested above. You might try negotiating with WUSTL about the money. Get on the phone and fax them a copy of George Mason's offer. Negotiating a FA package is done a lot.</p>

11

<p>The pros and cons expressed here are pretty much what we have come up with. On the pro side for WUSTL is quality of student body, mostly residential, prestige (?), her Dream school, what seems to be well-respected teaching and research, close to her godmother and family she has grown up visiting frequently. Cons pretty much relate to $, about 30K a yr or more differential, also possibility to not be tops in the class as she is used to. </p>

<p>Pros of GMU would be being in the selected scholars program of 25/yr, living in a special dorm, lots of perks like free printing, laundry(!), 1st choice of classes, semester-long library borrowing, closeness to DC and all the opportunities for internships of all sorts, I guess being singled out for being special right off the bat, also a long-time family friend just moved to DC. Cons would be more commuters, fewer residents, can't drive home as she can from St Louis (we live in Nashville), not sure of caliber of student body, or of teaching, not quite the "name" school. Both were pretty campuses, close to cool cities with things to do, kids seemed happy at both places, athletic facilities great at both. </p>

<p>She inquired about merit aid and was told no more was available, and we don't qualify for financial aid. She asked about tuition discounts and told they didn't know what she meant. Maybe because she got in off of the wait list they don't feel a need to negotiate. I'm not sure it would help for me to call?</p>

<p>As I said above, I have planned and saved and can make this happen but not without some skimping. She is a great girl, passionate, articulate, opinionated, voted most likely to succeed of her class of 245, varsity volleyball, national merit, all the stuff that most of these kids on cc seem to have, well-liked by all of her teachers. So I think she will do ok either place. She said tonight she can't even get a gut feeling for the best choice. We have until Mon!</p>

12

<p>I don't have much to add, but I thought I might emphasize the difference in campus life. I live in the Maryland suburbs of DC, and the area is rich with schools. Downtown schools are Georgetown, George Washington, American U, Catholic U, and Howard. Virginia suburban schools are George Mason and James Madison. The Univ of Maryland is also in the DC suburbs.</p>

<p>WUSTL is by far the better school acadmically with SAT 50% range of 1310-1480 while GMU is 970-1170. WUSTL is ranked by USNWR as #11 while GMU is not on the list. As I said before, getting a free ride in a lesser school is a good reason to turn down WUSTL. Actually, most high school students would probably do it in a heartbeat if you told them that you would give them $100K upon graduation. This is particularly true if your D plans on going to grad school.</p>

<p>The thing I would emphasize is that GMU is a commuter school. According to the Fiske Guide to Colleges, only 19% of the students live in on-campus housing (although a number live nearby), and 85% of the students are from Virginia. This is opposed to 80% of the WUSTL students living in on-campus housing and it being a national university. This may not be an issue to your D, but I thought I would point it out. Going to college is not just the academics.</p>

13

<p>Are these Greenwich Mean Times, or have u guys really been up since 4:am discussing this? :0</p>

14

<p>I would recommend George Mason, unless the financial burden of sending your daughter to Wash U does not hurt your family too much, financially speaking. Obviously, Washington U. is significantly better than George Mason, especially in Biology, but also in Political Science and as a university overall. But is so much better as to justify spending an additional $140,000? That is for you to answer. With that money, you can help pay for your daughter's entire Law School education!</p>

15

<p>I think some of the problem is that a high schooler is not at the stage of life where they understand what a hundred thousand dollars is. It is like myself when I hear that the government has spent 5 billions dollars on something. I know that 5 billion has nine zeros, but I don't really know what it means.</p>

<p>I was up late. :)</p>

16

<p>This is a tough choice that many of us have faced; indeed, most kids who are accepted into prestigious colleges with no money could have received large merit scholarships to the honors programs at other schools. Perhaps the most famous case on CC is that of Evil Robot, who turned down Yale for a full ride at Vanderbilt last year and is very happy; but of course Vanderbilt is an outstanding university in its own right.</p>

<p>As Northstarmom points out, Ivy League schools such as Harvard and Cornell offer only need-based aid, while Duke and Wash U. offer some large merit scholarships, but only to very few students. (At Wash U., for example, there's a separate scholarship application, and finalists were notified back in March.) I guess this is a hard question to answer, but would you have felt differently about the Wash U. expense if their acceptance had come at the same time as the George Mason offer? I realize you've been through a lot of ups and downs: Your daughter's choices seemed disappointing at first, but then you could see the brighter side of George Mason--including the vast financial advantage--and then everything turned upside down again.</p>

<p>I think it comes down to Northstarmom's question: "How important was financial aid to you when she applied?" If you went into this process expecting to pay the full cost, then I'm not sure anything has really changed; if the price of, say, Duke would have been worth it to you, Wash U. seem to offer a roughly comparable education. This is not to say that your daughter couldn't flourish if she went to George Mason, but if you can afford the luxury of Wash U., it does seem to offer a much stronger academic and campus environment.</p>

17

<p>Considering the amazing amount of things that there are to do in D.C. and in relatively close cities like Philly, Baltimore, NYC, if your D goes to George Mason, I would be surprised if she missed being able to go home frequently.</p>

<p>Even though George Mason is mainly a commuter school, it may be that she'd get a strong residential experience since she'd be in the honors dorm. It would be helpful for her to find out what % of honors students come from outside the D.C. area. If there's a high percentage, they are likely to be around for weekends.</p>

<p>In addition, there's a very good chance that those honors students are disproportionately involved in the campus' EC activities. If so, the fact that the other students don't stick around wouldn't matter that much. Your D's closest friends would probably be honors students, and she'd be able to have EC involvement with them.</p>

<p>When I taught at a third tier college, most of the ECs were run by students who had come in on honors scholarships, which had lured them away from top tier colleges. They tended to hang out together and have a lot in common.</p>

18

<p>wait, you have to pay 40 a year?</p>

<p>they can't get you some sort of financial aid?</p>

19

<p>They told my D that we don't qualify for financial aid. The merit aid has apparently been given out; she applied for a scholarship but did not receive one, as I said she was waitlisted and only accepted on 5/4. I am a single parent and have another son to educate in 3 yrs but I have saved and worked hard and probably didn't know how to fill out forms to our advantage; it does seem like everyone I know has been offered some $, even her rich friend who is going to Notre Dame. My house is worth 5x what I paid for it and so there is a lot of equity there. We can do this, and won't suffer unduely, it is just a whole lot to pay I think, as someone who is innately a thrifty person. I do think she understands the $ issue which is why she hasn't decided yet. She is pretty thoughtful for a teenager especially!</p>

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<p>drdeb8, i'm glad your daughter liked GMU while she visited. my high school is near the GMU campus, actually. in fact, our class is graduating at the Patriot Center. i'll see if i can get you in touch with the girl i was talking about who turned down WUSTL and upenn for GMU. she might be able to fill you in on her experience on the honors program.</p>