<p>Also, for those of you who get accepted in Ivy or Ivy caliber but can not afford to attend, you can always pursue your residency or specialization at these schools later.</p>
<p>This way, you don’t have to go up to your ears in deep debt in order to have the affiliation with these schools.</p>
<p>For those of you who can afford it, by all means if you are accepted at Ivy Med schools, GO FOR IT!</p>
<p>I find very few people forgoing Ivy League caliber med schools in favor of state schools. Obviously, if your state med school happens to be UMich or UCSF or UCSD, then it’s not unusual to choose those schools over Penn Med or Columbia P&S. The reason is that med school is extremely expensive no matter where you go (since there are very few grants) and the difference in avg. debt b/w a private med school and a public med school is only $30,000.</p>
<p>This is much different at the undergrad level where you can go to school for free by choosing a public university over a more expensive private university. If you don’t qualify for financial aid, the difference b/w a full-ride at a state school and an Ivy League education can be as much as $200,000. Thus, it makes more sense to forgo the Ivy League education at the college level.</p>
<p>Two links that are worth looking at</p>
<p>A Word from the President
“Medical School Rankings: Is There Really a Number One?”</p>
<p>Medschoolready.com</p>
<p>This was taken from the AAMC</p>
<p>AAMC Reporter: May 2007</p>
<p>A Word from the President:
Medical School Rankings: Is There Really a Number One?
Every year at this time, prospective medical school applicants begin to ask the all-important question, “How do I find the best medical school for me?” Often, one of the first places they look for answers is the U.S. News and World Report annual rankings, especially given the widespread press they typically generate.</p>
<p>As a former dean who actively interviewed applicants, I learned that the right fit for aspiring medical students is not about a ranking or number. It is all about the individual fit between a specific student and school.</p>
<p>Just what is wrong with the rankings? The fundamental problem is that they are based on a set of metrics that fail to directly measure the quality of education. In the U.S. News rankings, “reputation” is the most heavily weighted metric. While a variety of factors help determine a school’s reputation (such as the number of alumni and the size and location of its home city), many are in no way measures of educational quality.</p>
<p>Other metrics used in the rankings, such as the amount of National Institutes of Health (NIH) research grants awarded and faculty-to-student ratios, seem impressive at first glance, but can be misleading to an applicant. For example, while high levels of NIH funding may signal an institution’s commitment to building strong research programs (and may also reflect research opportunities available to students), a strong research orientation could have the unintended consequence of limiting faculty time in the classroom. As for faculty-to-student ratios, there is no guarantee that more faculty appointments directly correlate to the amount of time faculty members actually spend teaching.</p>
<p>Another metric, “student selectivity,” is based primarily on MCAT® scores, which measure cognitive abilities. However, attributes such as humanism, compassion, and empathy are also critical to selecting students who will make good doctors, as well as good colleagues. Lastly, the U.S. News rankings list only 50 of the 125 accredited U.S. medical schools. Does this mean unranked schools do not provide a high-quality education? To the contrary; it has been my experience that a superb medical education can be found in some of the less well-known, yet very student-focused schools that might not even appear on the U.S. News list. Given these limitations, it is my sincere hope that medical schools take great care in their promotion of the rankings. While I certainly understand the pride that comes with a high ranking, I am concerned that the rankings as a whole present an important audience—our applicants—with a very limited picture of U.S. medical schools.</p>
<p>So what should medical school applicants do to determine which school is right for them? As a first and critically important step, prospective medical school applicants should understand that accreditation of U.S. and Canadian medical schools granting the M.D. degree is conducted by the Liaison Committee on Medical Education (LCME). LCME accreditation is a rigorous evaluation process that ensures high quality across medical schools. Unlike the rankings, LCME accreditation is a quality assurance process that determines whether a medical school educational program meets established high standards for function, structure, and performance.</p>
<p>At the heart of the process are ad hoc teams of experienced, voluntary peer evaluators.Made up of basic science and clinical educators and practitioners, these evaluators conduct an on-site medical school survey and assess factors ranging from a school’s curriculum to the support and educational resources directly provided to students. In addition to conducting on-site surveys of each medical school approximately every eight years, (the standard term of accreditation), the LCME annually reviews data and written reports from all accredited U.S. and Canadian medical schools. It is interesting to note that a school could rank highly in each and every metric measured by U.S. News, but still fail to receive LCME accreditation.</p>
<p>Second, applicants should rely upon the more comprehensive and objective information found in the Medical School Admission Requirements (MSAR™) to assess a school’s potential fit more thoroughly. Published each spring by the AAMC, the MSAR is filled with data that provide a broader understanding of a school’s mission, entrance requirements, selection factors, and curriculum. It also contains a wealth of other important information for applicants’ consideration, ranging from the percentage of accepted applicants who have community service or medically related work experience to accepted applicants’ self-reported data on race and ethnicity.</p>
<p>Third, I highly recommend that applicants take a look for themselves. In my experience, campus visits are far and away the best method for students to assess their fit with a particular school. By visiting a medical school and speaking with current students, faculty, and staff, prospective applicants can see if their personal preferences match the unique features of a school. Campus visits also help stimulate questions that applicants may not have previously considered, such as whether the presence or absence of a large research program or strong community-based clinical learning sites would enhance their particular educational experience. And perhaps most importantly, campus visits are the only way to tell whether a school’s current medical students seem happy and engaged.</p>
<p>In the end, to determine which medical school is “number one” for them, applicants should understand the significant limitations of the rankings, seek objective information, visit schools in which they are interested, and ultimately make decisions based on the values and criteria most important to them.</p>
<p>One of my daughter’s HS friends who went to the state flagship got into the flagship med school & one top private, though he applied to many. He chose the private because it only costs $10k more per year & has a better reputation and opportunities. Other friends are planning on coming back home to practice so they chose local & flagship instate med schools. However they did apply OOS and did not do well with offers of interviews or acceptances. This is what really happened. </p>
<p>The point is that VERY FEW coming out at the top state flagship get into top tier/Ivy med schools (don’t know about other grad school acceptances like law & business so I won’t comment) It is not impossible, just very unlikely. So when kids say I’m saving my money for top tier/Ivy private grad school I wince because it is difficult to get into these places. And they do think they are going to get in.</p>
<p>Also- the student that got into the top med school from our flagship is an underrepresented minority in medicine.</p>
<p>[url=<a href=“http://www.uwire.com/Article.aspx?id=3400270]UWire[/url”>http://www.uwire.com/Article.aspx?id=3400270]UWire[/url</a>]</p>
<p>Looks like GWU Med has been put on probation. I definitely did not see this coming as it is an extremely popular school (in act, it receives more applications every year than every other med school with the possible exception of Drexel Med). This occurs as Chicago Med School (now called Rosalind Franklin) is coming off probation. If you think the LCME does not have high standards, think again.</p>
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<p>Wow,</p>
<p>“a lack of study and lounge space”</p>
<p>“Study and lounge space has been a problem since 2001, Scott said, when LCME first announced GW’s space did not meet their standards.”</p>
<p>Yes, very high standards indeed. Only took the LCME 7 years to followup.</p>
<p>Give me a break.</p>
<p>Returning to the original question poised in this thread.</p>
<p>There are going to be students who will be very against these combined programs, prefering to go the 4+4 route to. By the same token there will be many students that will prefer to come to these programs. For the latter group, it will be very helpful to have both strengths and weaknesses of each of these BS/MD program described by students attending these programs…</p>
<p>Climate, location, diversity of student population, support of the faculty for teaching, mentoring, availability of research,volunteering, job opportunities, cost of med school, USMLE scores, competiveness among the med students, intensity /rigor of undergard courses/ med school experience . How do the combined students compare with med students coming the traditional route… etc etc.</p>
<p>joydad, your posts are so helpful! Great thread overall. D does not care to go to research, she wants to be a practicing doctor (at least it is a plan for now). So, it looks that it was a good decision to be in combined program. Her program is 4 + 4, not accelerated, which offers her great flexibility and enabled her to have college experience that she would have outside of program anyway (2 minors, sorority, volunteering, working…etc.). At the same time she is with very selected high caliber students. I understand that it does not matter for carrier, but it enhances college experience. It is nice to know that MCAT=27 is relatively easy to get. If she gets higher, she will apply out, with 27 she at least will have a spot at Med. school without application fees, interviews, etc. She had a choice of 3 combined programs, that accepted her. The one that she has chosen provided greatest flexibility and “regular” college experience. To top this all, big plus for us, parents, is that D’s tuition and part of R&B are covered by Merit scholarships. D would not get any at Ivy or other elite school.</p>
<p>MiamiDAP-
My senior D is looking for combined BS/MD program as well as “normal” college experience and will likely get scholarship offers. Would you mind telling me which school your d is at and what year she is?</p>
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<p>It’s not 7 years to followup but rather 7 years for the problem to escalate (as GWU took on more students w/o increasing their lounge space) and for other problems to develop to warrant being put on a probation. </p>
<p>I personally think lounge space is a relatively small thing when evaluating med schools. I interviewed at GWU for med school and it wasn’t apparent to the naked eye that there wasn’t enough lounge space (although it’s not like I got out a tape measure and measured the area). Even the Dean at the med school was quoted in the article as saying the issues may seem minor. That is my point. A school can be put on probation for things that have nothing directly to do with research or funding or the curriculum. Even something like the availability of bathrooms in the health sciences library or the amount of student lounge space is evaluated by the LCME. THAT is what makes US med schools much more uniform in quality than law or business schools. Everything is under scrutiny from the LCME, from tiny minutae to larger issues.</p>
<p>miltonmom, I have sent you a private message.</p>
<p>NCG,</p>
<p>Can we find a compiled list of all med schools put on probation list in 08? Would it be on AAMC website?</p>
<p>[Panel’s</a> Review Lands Medical School on Probation - washingtonpost.com](<a href=“http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/10/15/AR2008101503120.html]Panel’s”>http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/10/15/AR2008101503120.html)</p>
<p>George Washington University School of Medicine and Health Sciences was put on probation by its academic accrediting organization for being out of compliance on several standards, school officials told students and faculty yesterday.</p>
<p>The school remains FULLY ACCREDITED while it makes improvements. But it is the only medical school accredited by the Liaison Committee on Medical Education that is on probation and only the fifth put on probation since 1994. No medical school has ever lost its accreditation through this process, a stroke that would effectively kill the program.</p>
<p>Idk if anyone here is enrolled in an BS/DO program. I am in the 7-yr BS/DO Program at SUNY New Paltz. There’s also one in NYIT and it’s 3 yrs undergrad and 4 yrs at NYCOM (New York College of Osteopathic Medicine) in Old Westbury. It’s an ok program except I mean I guess this is the problem with these types of programs in general. You’re basically rushing through the premed courses and on top of it all you have major and other requirements for the program, such as Intro to Stat and Writing Intensive, and then upper division biology courses. We have to take the MCATs, but the requirement isn’t as high (usually 26-28). However, we have to take it at the end of sophomore with Physics 2 and Orgo 2 and MCAT classes and all. Sometimes, I wonder…</p>
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<p>I think GWU is the only one currently. It’s pretty rare which is why it’s fairly shocking whenever a school gets placed on probation. </p>
<p>I don’t think it’s a huge deal as GWU will not lose its accreditation anytime soon. In the short term, it will cost GWU a few apps but since it already receives more apps than any other med school in the country, it can stand to lose a few.</p>
<p>sheturnedtogo, Accelerated programs are not for everybody. There are combined programs that are 4 + 4. D’s program, for example, is flexible, except for one strict requirement - they are not allowed to graduate earlier. Result - regular college experience.</p>
<p>NCG, By the way, when do the med schools begin informing students of acceptances this year for traditional grads who are applying?</p>
<p>Around 10/15 for rolling schools and throughout March for non-rolling schools.</p>