wouldn't it be interesting if colleges didn't look at race?

Applying to College
41

<p>I love how objective anecdotal evidence is. JP Omnipotence >_></p>

42

<p>Not this again. Nothing is going to change. Let's just do the best with the system we have right now. Seriously speaking, its not that bad.</p>

43

<p>Are you saying there's a problem with my response? EMM1 told me to imagine being black for a month. I responded that I am very well acquainted with a black kid, and he has hardly gone through anything because of his race, and that if I were him for a month, I'd probably enjoy it more than my normal life.</p>

<p>I don't see how I could respond with anything other than anecdotal evidence in this case.</p>

44

<p>You've brought up being multiracial in every post you've made.</p>

<p>I'm half-asian, too. It's not that bad.</p>

<p>Colleges aren't trying to eliminate you, they're trying to make their school as appealing as possible. They're not selecting people that aren't qualified, they're looking for people who have something to add.</p>

<p>It's a holistic process. Plus, looking at one rich African American and basing your opinion of that is like looking at one Asian (or half-asian) getting into Stanford and saying that we don't need to worry about them anymore.</p>

<p>You just want it to be fair, right?</p>

<p>Then imagine your family being enslaved, then left to fend for themselves to "live the American dream" when they have no education, no land, and no money. You'd still want a chance, right?</p>

<p>It's only fair.</p>

<p>Results don't have to be the same for everyone, but why not equal opportunity?</p>

45

<p>You know, chinese americans had to deal with similar conditions. They had no education, no land, no money, and had to work on the transcontinental railroad for 1/4 the white minimum wage.</p>

<p>And the worst part is nobody gives asians any sympathy. It's still okay to make racist comments about chinese or japanese americans. It's still politically correct to make generalizations about them being "emotionless human number crunchers" or "boring outcasts who do homework instead of hanging out with friends". Numerous times people have told me something like "well of course you have no social life, you're asian." in front of the whole class, and to have the teacher do nothing but smile, as if this were a fact.</p>

<p>I can bet you that if I said something like "oh yeah of course he failed the test, he's black" I would never be forgiven.</p>

<p>People are always so quick to point out the ways in which blacks suffered, and when it comes to issues like affirmative action, seemingly pass over asians as if their history was nothing but privilege.</p>

<p>I'm not trying to appear racist here, I'm just stating what I perceive out there in the world. Sure maybe I'm biased because I am half Chinese, but I really feel that people don't give us credit for anything.</p>

46

<p>
[quote]
I'm assuming that none of the top LACs apply to this statement.

[/quote]

Caltech 38.4%
MIT 29.3%
Duke 28.4%
Carnegie Mellon 27.0%
Stanford 24.3%
Harvey Mudd 24%
USC 24%
Penn 21%
Hopkins 20%
Emory 20%</p>

<p>Haverford 11.4%
WUStL 11%
UVA 10.8%
Williams 10.5%
Carleton 10.1%
Middlebury 9.51%
Notre Dame 8%
William & Mary 8%
Oberlin 7.98%
UNC 7.75%
Macalester 7.71%
Trinity (CT) 7.23%
Colby 7.18%
Hamilton 7.17%
Colgate 7%
Vanderbilt 7%
Grinnell 6.88%
Holy Cross 5.33%
Bates 5.09%
Kenyon 4.67%
Colorado 4.56%
W&L 3.45%
Davidson 2.94% (!!!)</p>

<p>Notice the gap in the number of Asian students. No wonder the top [science/math] schools are so competitive- everyone applies to them. :rolleyes:</p>

47

<p>"Affirmative Action is racism at its worst." </p>

<ul>
<li>i just thought i'd requote bobmallet so everyone can observe how ridiculous it was.</li>
</ul>

<p>and btw, JP, how would you know that he experiences nothing special, nothing different because of his race? Do you think he's just going to tell you all of his thoughts and feelings all of the time? any time somebody treats YOU differently do YOU complain about it to all of your friends?</p>

<p>and i also agree with Bay:
"If you are not interested in attending a university with a racially diverse student body, then that university is not interested in having you for a student."</p>

48

<p>I think bobmallet was exaggerating. Of course affirmative action isn't as racist as slavery or genocide. I think what he meant was it is a prime example of racism today.</p>

<p>Tyler: I never said he experiences nothing special because of his race. I said he gets stereotyped no more than I do (and I pointed out that I do get treated differently because of my race). Meaning that the small amount of stereotyping he is subject to in no way hurts his chances of going to college. Sure he has unique experiences because of his race, so does everyone. But these experiences are so minor that any sort of compensation is not needed.</p>

<p>And at Bay's comment:
Just because a college has the right to do something doesn't mean it's morally right. Back in the day, things like Jewish quotas and "separate but equal" facilities were perfectly legal, and colleges had all the rights to enforce these policies. I guess my retort would be the back then, the equivalent saying would have been "If you are not interested in attending a university with an all white student body, then that university is not interested in having you for a student"</p>

49

<p>Sigh....... Here are some things I think many of you would benefit from reading....</p>

<p>Anderson, Terry H. The Pursuit of Fairness: a History of Affirmative Action. New York: Oxford UP, 2004. </p>

<p>Brown II, M. Christopher, ed. Readings on Equal Education: Volume 18: Equity and Access in Higher Education: Changing the Definition of Educational Opportunity. New York: AMS P, 2002. </p>

<p>Carter, Stephen L. Reflections of an Affirmative Action Baby. New York: Basic Books, 1991. </p>

<p>Chang, Mitchell J., Daria Witt, James Jones, and Kenji Hakuta, eds. Compelling Interest: Examining the Evidence on Racial Dynamics in Colleges and Universities. Stanford: Stanford UP, 2003. </p>

<p>Crosby, Faye J. Affirmative Action is Dead; Long Live Affirmative Action. New Haven; London: Yale UP, 2004. </p>

<p>Douglass, John A. The Conditions for Admission: Access, Equity, and the Social Contract of Public Universities. Stanford: Stanford UP, 2007. </p>

<p>Feinberg, Walter. On Higher Ground: Education and the Case for Affirmative Action. New York; London: Teachers College P, 1998. </p>

<p>Gurin, Patricia, Jeffery Lehman, and Earl Lewis. Defending Diversity: Affirmative Action At the University of Michigan. Ann Arbor: University of Michigan P, 2004. </p>

<p>Katznelson, Ira. When Affirmative Action Was White. New York; London: W.W. Norton & Company, 2005. </p>

<p>Mills, Nicolaus, ed. Debating Affirmative Action: Race, Gender, Ethnicity, and the Politics of Inclusion. New York: Dell, 1994. </p>

<p>Moses, Michele S. Embracing Race: Why We Need Race-Conscious Education Policy. New York; London: Teachers College P, 2002. </p>

<p>Race-Neutral Alternatives in Postsecondary Education: Innovative Approaches to Diversity. Washington, D.C.: U.S. Dept. of Education, Office for Civil Rights, 2003. <a href="http://www.ed.gov/about/offices/list/ocr/edlite-raceneutralreport.html"&gt;http://www.ed.gov/about/offices/list/ocr/edlite-raceneutralreport.html&lt;/a>. </p>

<p>Sacks, Peter. Tearing Down the Gates: Confronting the Class Divide in American Education. Berkeley; Los Angeles; London: University of California P, 2007. </p>

<p>Walton, Eugene. A Memo to America: From Gratz V. Bollinger to Reparations. Chula Vista: Aventine P, 2003. </p>

<p>Wise, Tim J. Affirmative Action: Racial Preference in Black and White. New York; London: Routledge, 2005.</p>

50

<p>WUSTL and Williams? That surprises me. So... it's supposedly easier for Asians to get in? That seems awkward, especially since it seems like a lot of Asians apply there(?).</p>

51

<p>
[quote]
- i just thought i'd requote bobmallet so everyone can observe how ridiculous it was.

[/quote]

obviously, you take my words too literally... I was exagerrating, but you cannot deny that it is not racist.</p>

52

<p>I agree bobmallet1.</p>

<p>Really, some of the threads on this board are testaments to the fact that AA is...well...racist.</p>

<p>I've seen threads about asians wanting to change their last name so they could apply for an engineering major without being seen as a stereotypical asian.</p>

<p>I've personally know a girl who majored in mathematics even though she hated it because she knew that AA would act in her favor. Later she couldn't transfer out of that major and right now has no idea what to do with her life.</p>

<p>I see asians who apply for liberal arts majors simply because they know that with affirmative action, they won't get in if they choose engineering.</p>

<p>The system is really sad. Anything that makes people wish they were of a different race, or makes people do things they don't want to do because of their race, is horrible and by definition racist.</p>

53

<p>basically, if college admissions is enough to make you want to change your race, or change who you are and do things you don't want to, then maybe you don't deserve to go to your dream school. </p>

<p>The statements "I wish I was black, so i could get into a good school" or "I hate being asian! i might not get into Harvard!" are founded in pure ignorance, the defending of which is idiotic. </p>

<p>All of the examples that you cited JP are testaments to problems with those people and their lack of character and identity, not to the faults in AA. </p>

<p>and whether or not AA is negative or discrimination is one thing, but it definitely is not racist. Being racist means deeming a race inferior or superior to another. AA does neither of those things. Slavery was racist, Jim Crow was racist, the holocaust was racist, the conflict in Darfur is racist, AA may or may not be discrimination but is not racist.</p>

54

<p>Alright then tyler, what do you have to do to deserve to go to your dream school?</p>

<p>On Princeton study(<a href="http://opr.princeton.edu/faculty/tje/espenshadessqptii.pdf%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://opr.princeton.edu/faculty/tje/espenshadessqptii.pdf&lt;/a&gt;) shows that being black is worth 230 SAT points on the old 1600 scale, and being asian is roughly -50 points. That's a huge difference. You see many people on the boards griping over only a few points, so why is it surprising to see people who wish they could get an automatic 420 point boost (using the 2400 scale) to their scores, changing nothing but the color of their skin?</p>

<p>How are those statements founded in pure ignorance? It is no more ignorant to say something like what you suggested and "I wish I had about 400 more SAT points to improve my chances of getting into a better school" or "I hate my 1900! I wish I had a 2300. It would make me a more competitive candidate for harvard."</p>

<p>As for AA being racist or not, well in my book it's racist. Making the assumption that "all asians will score 400 points above equally qualified black candidates" sounds pretty racist to me.</p>

55

<p>Let's not start this again, please guys? I've fought and proletariat2's fought and fabrizio's fought and Tyler09's fought and spideygirl's fought and everyone's gotten all cantankerous because of this damn issue. Whether we think it is right or wrong, we can only fantasize about changing the mind of the person on the other side of the internet forums. The argument has no single right answer--let's just let it rest before we cause another AA superthread to spill out and suck everybody into a horrible argument that tears at the very sanity of CC once more. </p>

<p>GIVE ME THAT CUBE, BOY!</p>

56

<p>
[quote]
Say that you want to choose a flavor of ice cream. You really like chocolate, vanilla, and banana (you see where this is going), but you can only have one. How do you choose? Well, say you've already had two vanilla milkshakes today. Would you have another, or choose a different flavor?

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Warblers, that is quite an oversimplified analogy. What if the banana had a 2400 SAT score and the chocolate only had a 1900? </p>

<p>You might think, "well, I had enough banana already today, so I'll go with chocolate" -- not realizing that each individual scoop of banana is just that, INDIVIDUAL. Each has a slightly different flavor with different quirks and a different personality, just like each chocolate.</p>

<p>Just because banana LOOKS the same as the other bananas on a brochure, and chocolate LOOKS the same as other chocolates on the brochure, it doesn't mean that they ARE the same.</p>

<p>They are always distinct individuals with different backgrounds and different personalities, different abilities and different advantages.</p>

<p>Don't generalize too much. It will come back to bite you--or someone else!</p>

57

<p>1st of all you can make studies like that say whatever you like, so you can only take them for a grain of salt. </p>

<p>"all asians will score 400 points above equally qualified black candidates"
-That is an assumption that you made right now by the data to make you say what you wanted it to.</p>

<p>and the two statements are VERY different. Theres a difference between saying "I wish i was better at piano so i could be a pianist" and "I wish i was black so i could get a boost in college", In fact, the latter IS racist as it trivializes and demeans being black as "a boost in college".</p>

58

<p>Ok first of all i would like to make public that mj93 is a freshman. GET HER!!!!!</p>

<p>no, im jp.</p>

<p>but aren't you overgeneralizing yourself mj93?
First of all, not even JP's warped data suggested that any student getting a 1900 SAT is the same as a student getting a perfect score. Second, even if we made the gap 2200 vs 2400, (something data would suggest considering Princeton did not take writing scores into account at the time of the study) aren't you attempting to convince yourself that colleges particularly value ANYBODY with a 2400 over a 2200?</p>

59

<p>YOU FAIL ME AGAIN STARSCREAM!</p>

<p>On a completely unrelated note.</p>

<p>I'll agree with JP_Omnipotence that sometimes I fantasize about being black. Or White. Or Jewish. Or Mexican. Those are fantasies. But, I'm proud about my heritage. Getting into HYPS isn't going to define me as a person whether or not I get in. Maybe AA is unfair in some person's opinion, but I believe you'll have an equally enriching experience at any school. I suppose it's not much to say but, home is where you make it. This almost connects to the issue of going to schools just for their names. But, that's a whole different topic.</p>

<p>Well, that's just my two bits on it anyway. I really just wanted to say "YOU FAIL ME AGAIN STARSCREAM!" to enderkin.</p>

60

<p>

If we're talking calories, obviously the chocolate. ;)</p>