...wrong for a parent to "suggest"...

<p>Son #2 of 5 is off to State U and going through what I think is a normal adjustment to college. 1st qt grades great, 2nd qt grades really bad, but I really feel that the "IB program" at his high school has him prepared and I am confident he will adjust and do well. </p>

<p>My question is about son #3 of 5
He is a 8th grader who is about to make choices about which High school programs to apply to. He has interest in Computer programming, want to be a game designer/ graphic artist. His high school has a impressive "Information Technology" program. It is a 4 year program that covers a broad range of the subject and could lead to possible Certification in (i-NET+, NET+, A+). The down side is the program does not included a lot of AP/IB type of class. How do the "top colleges" view these types of programs?</p>

<p>Would it be wrong for a parent to "suggest" more of a college prep path if college is a goal of the student?</p>

<p>If the eventual goal is to go to a 4-year college and get a BS/BA in something, then a college prep path is probably more appropriate.</p>

<p>Certification programs are a bit like fancy vocational - so one can begin a good career after HS or 2 year college.</p>

<p>But that's not always the case. One of my friends did cisco certification in HS and is now at UCLA. So if that's what he's interested in, it's not necessarily a bad thing to pursue, but not at the expense of college prep - probably most "upper-tier" colleges won't view them as core academics electives, though state schools might.</p>

<p>Around these boards, the phrase "top college" usually refers to an Ivy league or elite level private college. If the high school with the IT program will provide the basic college prep requirements for the State U... then you may not need to worry that much -- if you and he would be satisfied with that outcome. (Since son #2 is at State U doing reasonably well and 5 sons = 5 tuitions, I certainly can see no downside of simply focusing on your public options). </p>

<p>A lot of the angst you read on these boards really does come from those who aspire to the super-competitive Ivy-league caliber colleges. Admission requirements to most state U's tend to be more straightforward, and a kid with a knack for math & technical stuff will usually do well in admissions down the line.</p>

<p>To expand on what calmom said, you could easily look on-line at a few colleges and see what courses they want from their applicants and compare that to what he would get with the HS tech program. If you see that he's not going to have what it takes then I would sit down and talk with your son. Many colleges (not sure about "top colleges) ask for 4 years of math with last math being pre-calc, 4 years of English, 3 years of social studies, 3 years of science, 3 -4 years of a foreign language. If he has those requirements and is in a program he likes, it might turn out to be a fulfilling HS experience.</p>

<p>I also have an eighth grade son and he was interested in taking computer programming instead of band. He decided on his own to go with band (we're a bando family) and take the programming classes junior year when there will be another opening in his schedule.</p>

<p>Well what I mean by what I said was that some schools may be more flexible than others...</p>

<p>Like, for example, in california, HS courses are approved by the UC system to count towards their various admission requirements of academic college-prep classes. The CSU/cal state system does the same, but approves a much wider range of courses. It may be that a technical certification course might count as an academic elective to the CSU system, and not so to a UC school.</p>

<p>And of course when you add in all the other public and private schools on the planet you get widely different ways they interpret things. But as a general rule, I think, as reputation goes up, the less likely such courses would be considered "college-prep"</p>

<p>Northcoastdad:</p>

<p>Can we assume that besides the impressive IT courses the program also offers a range of courses in social studies, English language arts and the like that your son could take? In that case, I'd say go for it. Being motivated by courses a student likes is very important for success not only in those courses but in others as well. If the school does not offer APs, then as long as he takes the most challenging classes the school offers, he should be okay. I heard of a young woman who attended our regional vocational school (a nationally known school) and was admitted into MIT.<br>
The onle downside to choosing the IT school is that your son might develop interests not catered to by the school.</p>

<p>NorthCoast: Do the top colleges you have in mind even offer the type of majors that would suit your son? You might be preparing him for colleges that won't deliver what he wants & needs. I think the IT program will likely inspire your son to jump into his schoolwork with enthusiasm. Forcing AP/IB offerings might kill any academic spark, especially knowing that he was steered away from a program that he really wanted.</p>

<p>NorthCoast Dad -- my S2 is interested in computer graphic design and electronic game programming and is receiving his college admissions decisions now (one more to go!). His view of "top colleges" were the ones that offered the major he wanted and that accepted students with a profile like his; he wasn't looking for an "elite" school, he wanted a program that would let him focus on what he was most interested in. He's now receiving scholarship offers that he hadn't expected and has 4 good schools to choose from so far. In case it's helpful, I'll tell you about his HS curriculum. Feel free to send me a PM if I can offer further details.</p>

<p>My S2's HS program was college-prep. He did not take certification programs such as the ones you mentioned, but his HS offers an impressive series of computer science courses (including half a dozen post-AP Comp Sci classes focusing on various aspects of CS: he took AP Comp Sci AB as early as he could get the pre-reqs out of the way) which he ate up. He also took AP Calculus and Discrete Math, which is CS-related. And of course, art and design and motion graphics classes. If these hadn't been available at our HS, he might have been motivated to look for them outside of school: over the summers, he took some courses in game design and animation arts from places like Digital</a> Media Academy. Note that my S2 only has those 2 AP classes on his record, but does have a selection of other courses (physics, electronics, theatre arts) and outside activities that relate well to his interests. He did well in the above subjects.... and "not so well" in the others (English, history, foreign language) but is still getting generous merit offers.</p>

<p>My S2 would have been bored with the IT curriculum, but loves computer graphic arts and is well prepared to soar in college. You might want to do some quick research on colleges where he can study the aspect of the field he's most interested in, and show him online the program materials. There have been many articles lately about electronic game design as a serious major, search for those. Maybe that, combined with the experiences of my S2 and others here, might help him decide where he wants to put his energies in high school. From what I've learned in my S2's search, IT skills =/= electronic game design skills. They are not the same discipline. (And I have an IT background; I could not see him going where he wants to go with such a preparation.) Good luck to him!</p>

<p>NCD, why are you concerned about your 8th grade son yet toss out the alarming decline of son#2's second term academic performance. Successfully completing a challenging IB program in hs is commendable. But colleges are littered with student who are capable student yet fail to perform up to expectations academically. The reason can be as simple as relegating academics to a second class priority or as serious as a troubling personal problem.</p>

<p>I assume that you know why son#2 slipped badly last term and have given him the advice and encouragement for him to right the ship. Until he demonstrates that he has been successful, that would be a first priority.</p>

<p>Regarding son#3, I would suggest that he continue in a normal college prep hs program. This is not the time to be determining what a 13 year old will be choosing to do 5 years down the road let alone 20 years hence. If he wants to get various certifications in tech apps, there are plenty of private, tuition based programs he can take in his spare time.</p>

<p>originaloog, mootmom says her son took a wide variety of computer science and graphics courses ALONG with the college prep courses. College acceptances & scholarships are already in the bag. NorthCoast's son isn't likely to have many AP/IB courses, but that doesn't preclude him from college admittance.</p>

<p>If the kid is really interested in the IT stuff, let him go that path. I'm assuming that first 2 years are very similar....and that the AP coursework starts to load up Jr. Year. D's bf sounds similar....he went the AP math/physics route, but took a pass on AP history, English, foreign language so that he could focus on what he felt passionate about. Kept a high GPA, and "absense" of loads of AP classes was justified by the extent that he became involved in everything IT at hs. (also had paid internship at major company's IT dept between jr and sr year). Just got his admit to Carnegie Mellon's IT program yesterday. I disagree w/ statement that 13 yr old can't determine what he's interested in. It depends on the kid. And besides, the OP's S is aspiring in a lucrative, in-demand field. Let him go with it. If nothing else, he'll be able to have higher paying part-time jobs throughout high school and college with technical expertise already under his belt.</p>

<p>
[quote]
Would it be wrong for a parent to "suggest" more of a college prep path if college is a goal of the student?

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Suggest? Heck, I'd insist on it.</p>

<p>Especially at this stage, you need to keep your options open. I think it was Carolyn who posted this link I have bookmarked that I liked (though my son didn't give a hoot about it) <a href="http://paulgraham.com/hs.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://paulgraham.com/hs.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>Carnegie Mellon has an outrageously expensive summer program video games program that you might hold out as a carrot: <a href="http://www.cmu.edu/enrollment/pre-college/game.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.cmu.edu/enrollment/pre-college/game.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>Isn't the current wisdom on college admissions "Show your uniqueness, follow your passion?" I can't imagine a better way to do that than to take part in an intensive IT program that covers "a broad range of subjects" and can lead to certification. There is no reason to think college admissions standards will not be met by the program. Kids focus on all types of specific programs of varying levels of academic rigor in magnet schools & do very well in college admissions. This sounds like a great opportunity to me.</p>

<p>We're letting our D explore the arts offerings at her h.s. Why load up on APs in areas that don't interest her? AP Chem & AP Calc will be enough to show colleges that she's had a solid math/science foundation. Some parents are pushing girls to double up on sciences & forgo a well-respected Art History or photography or painting class. I think that approach will just make kids miserable if the humanities/artsy courses are where their interests lie. The same goes for the IT passion of NorthCoast's son. As long as a good representation of rigorous courses are taken, why not indulge the kid's passion? Why not facilitate the love of learning by being immersed in courses he wants?</p>

<p>I cannot agree more with SS & APM. My S opted to take the Microsoft certification courses when he was very young. He didn't mention it on his applications, but it was part of the path. </p>

<p>By the way, congrats to APM's S on IT at CMU.</p>

<p>Don't know the price, but I just happened to see that RPI also has a summer game programming course.</p>

<p>Of course every kid is different, but it was pretty clear at age 7 that Mathson was likely to be a computer programmer. He got the bug early!</p>

<p>I'm not sure that the IT program has a "good representation of rigorous courses." Maybe the OP's school is different, but where we live the high school IT program is about setting up networks, system administration, etc., and is not considered college prep. It is not the path toward computer science. We're not talking about only taking AP Chem and Calc, we're talking about maxing out in Algebra II and general science.</p>

<p>If you had an eighth-grader who really loved cars, would you let him pursue an auto mechanics vocational course in high school? I would, if I though my kid wasn't college material, and I would be thankful for the opportunity. But if I though he were somewhat academically talented, I would insist on a college prep high school curriculum. Then I'd help him buy an old car to rebuild in the driveway or help him get a job at the local garage or detailer. We'd hit the car museums, take in a race or two, and tour a manufacturing plant. Then when it came time for college, he'd have his choice of business, engineering, or whatever else has captured his fancy in the meantime.</p>

<p>College-prep high school courses provide the foundation for a semi-infinite variety of future outcomes. Vocational courses do not. There are ways to feed a kid's passions that do not close doors.</p>

<p>There are plenty of CISCO/IBM/A+ classes at the local community college if he really wants to pursue that.</p>

<p>I cannot agree more with Dad'o'2. The IT programs here are also network and sysadmin tracks, and are NOT what electronic game programmers and designers are likely to (a) need, or (b) be interested in. When I hear "IT program" I hear "sysadmin training": if instead it means "a variety of CS and programming classes" that might be worthwhile, but please don't let him shoehorn himself into a sysadmin track if what he really wants to do is a graphic arts track. (PS: I have been a sysadmin as has my H, and am still doing some today -- it can be a very rewarding career choice! My point is that it is <em>NOT</em> necessarily a path to electronic game design, and choosing it as a path this early might preclude some pretty interesting other stuff that might come up in the meantime.) And as hinted, an 8th grader is not generally ready to declare his career path that early (some exceptions noted). Keeping a broader focus in HS would probably serve him better in the longer run. IMHO.</p>

<p>Computer Science != IT. (That's 'not equal'). Becoming certified in Microsoft networking or Cisco routers for example, bears no relation to Computer Science.</p>

<p>To properly prepare for a Computer Science major one should take a rigorous courseload in HS including higher levels of math (the highest they offer) and physics. Competition to get into top engineering programs is high and once in the major the work is difficult. </p>

<p>I don't know what the OP's 'IT' curriculum is comprised of but I think if the goal is a CS degree, one would be better off going the AP route and also take AP Computer Science if the school offers it.</p>

<p>btw - I'm not trying to burst a bubble but it's pretty common for HS age boys to want to develop video games for obvious reasons but the vast majority of CS workers aren't employed in the gaming business. Also, many of them become less interested when they discover the amount of math courses and work necessary to obtain the degree.</p>

<p>Thanks to everyone who responded!
I was leaning more towards one side, now I am on the fence. If I sum up the pros and the con posts at the time of this post its about ~ 8/8</p>

<p>I as I learn more about the program (the middle school did a bad job of informing parents of the programs) IT only takes 2 out of the available 7 class periods the freshman year. This will allow room for advance: English, Math, Science, Social science, and Phys Ed. (high school does offer at least 10 AP level classes) These required class leaves no room for a foreign language and Band, which he really want to do. The IT class period requirement grow to 3-4 by senior year. </p>

<p>S3 just brought home the class sign up sheet, and the school is expecting it back a.s.a.p. Our current plan is to apply for the IT program, which admittance to the program is a subjective process. If admitted, S3 will take Phy ED over the summer, to make room for Band. Band is a must have for him, and wait and see where we can fit a foreign language. Any comments about this plan are welcome.</p>

<p>originaloog:
You bring up a very good point, may I say even "touched a nerve", with the comment about S2: "why are you concerned about your 8th grade son yet toss out the alarming decline of son#2's second term academic performance." </p>

<p>I would like to discuss this in an open forum, but I don't know if this is the right thread, I don't want to get of topic just yet.</p>