<p>I agree with you. Completely. But for someone like me – not in California – USD simply means, “Ok, a private school in San Diego.” I have no sense of comparability, only USNWR to go on. USNWR isn’t perfect, but it’s a start. And if it’s ranked in the 90’s, to me that’s a differential that is worth considering. This isn’t Yale vs full ride to Vanderbilt type of thing, where the answer is follow-the-money, you’re-close-enough. But - it’s easy for me to spend other people’s money. I have no idea what that extra money does to the OP - put him in the poorhouse, or just mean some frugality for a few years?</p>
<p>I think we need to separate out what characterics make a good student vs a good person. It is wrong to make a blanket statement about students at schools like Yale as nerds, socially inept, boorish, entitled…any more to say students at lower tier schools are lazy, lack work ethics, stupid…What makes someone a good student doesn’t necessarily makes someone a good person. But if I were to send my kid some where to get an education, I would prefer my kid to be surrounded by students of the similar calibre. At the same time, college education is more than just about academic, it should include values our kids learn at an institution, and that’s where fit comes into play.</p>
<p>D2 has some reservation about Yale’s residential college concept. She thought there was a segregation of male/female when she visited the school (maybe due to secret societies). Whereas, she felt very comfortable at Brown. She likes how Brown promotes diversity, recruits international students. Are all Yale students elitists? I wouldn’t think so. Are all Brown students open minded and down to earth? I wouldn’t think so either. But D2 will choose a school of a certain academic calibre where she is going to feel most comfortable. I mention a school of a certain academic calibre because I have no doubt she would be bored out of her mind at some less academic rigorous schools. It doesn’t mean D2 is a better person, but she is maybe a better student than other kids.</p>
<p>I think all of these discussions tie in to our sense of self worth. If someone doesn’t go to a top tier school, does it make that person worth less as a person? I think a lot of people feel that way. If people would let that notion go then we could discuss/appreciate the kind of education an institution like Yale has to offer.</p>
<p>Hunt - it was a sense D2 got when she was at Yale. I don’t know much about Yale’s secret societies. She noticed guys/girls were hanging out separately. Neither of those schools were in our radar before, D2 is very different than D1. We have a lot more homework we need to do.</p>
<p>I thought that was an odd perception as well. Especially because Yale has co-ed bathrooms (which can be opted out of). The residential colleges are mixed male and female. Was your D referring to the fact that there weren’t any male/female mixed suites at Yale? </p>
<p>It is my understanding also that the secret societies are co-ed.</p>
<p>Honestly, some of the things being attributed to good students of the variety who can achieve admittance to a school like Yale are as ridiculous as when these things used to be attributed to stellar athletes. Think Tiger Woods. </p>
<p>Some people are born academically gifted (it is, by the way, a certain type of intellect, not even the only type of intellect), and they ought to have the opportunity to develop these gifts, imho. Some are born gifted in other areas, and they ought to have the opportunity to develop those gifts. But, seriously??? Better character?</p>
<p>The white collar crime logs are full of Ivy graduates who lack character, just as are the major league sports teams and performing arts. Character has got nothing to do with utilizing native born gifts. And native born gifts, whether they be physical beauty, athletic prowess, charisma with people, true leadership, or academic intellect, do not make one person “better” than another.</p>
<p>Egad people. As some of you like to say, “You’ve really jumped the shark” here.</p>
Way back in the thread, I mentioned Tiger Woods to point out that while he might not be a better person than me, there could be no doubt that he’s a better golfer than me. I think this is what most of those arguing for Yale have been saying–that Yale has, on average, better and more accomplished students. There have been some claims, I guess, that being a good and accomplished student shows some positive character traits, but I would certainly agree that these don’t include things like kindness, etc.</p>
<p>I thought it was evident that Tom was trying to say “Not that many at the Ivies are not worthy of consideration as best in character” and typed it incorrectly, so I cut him slack on that one. He was trying to say that being Ivy didn’t make them automatically good character, but it didn’t mean that they couldn’t be high character.</p>
<p>Here is a debate topic about character. My 7th grader has a topic that says American parents are not teaching their kids proper values.</p>
<p>included in the discussion</p>
<p>Bullying of other kids in anyway (a major recent addition is cyber bullying causing kids in middle school to commit suicide).
Cheating on tests in school to get better grades.</p>
<p>I just checked with H and D2 (they went on a Yale tour at, I stayed home), they said the tour guide said there are secret societies that are male only. D2 thought guys were better looking.:)</p>
<p>I’m pretty sure all of the “tomb” societies–that is, the established ones that have buildings (which look like windowless tombs) have gone coed. There are a whole raft of newer (and often jokier) societies, and perhaps some of those are single-sex.</p>
<p>Yes it is. And I was surprised to learn that the people in it are not Bush/CIA/old money WASPs as in The Good Shepherd, but rather people who are leaders on campus: the editor of the Yale Daily News is almost always tapped, for example, and the group is both coed and ethnically diverse.</p>
<p>At least according to my D (who was not in a society), the societies are a very small part of the Yale experience, and if you’re not interested in them, they won’t even be on your radar. I believe you’re tapped as a junior but only fully participate in your senior year.</p>
<p>poetgirl: I included quite a few caveats in my comments, so for you to cite just a few sentences in your post #290 is unfair (and shows a lack of character, lol). There was a time in the history of this country when laziness (failure to work, be active or exert oneself) was considered a serious character flaw. </p>
<p>I’ll admit I have an axe to grind here. I am sick and tired of lazy parents of lazy children becoming so indignant about, and envious of, hard-working parents of hard-working children when the latter gain admission to better colleges and obtain better jobs. These were the same people who didn’t want their little darlings to have to work too hard, so Johnny stayed in grade level math with his buddies even though every year the teacher told him he wasn’t challenging himself. These are the same people whose kids opted out of honors English because it’s very time-consuming to write all those papers and they wanted their child to be able to relax in the evenings. These are the same people who didn’t feel like getting out of bed early on weekends to drive little Janie all over the state for travel soccer. And these are the same ones who didn’t feel their little princess should have to toil away in the summer at a job or internship, so they rented a house at the shore for her instead so she could entertain friends. And now they want to act like we’re elitist snobs because of college choices and say, “Well, my kids just aren’t as smart as yours.” Really? They were once, and could have been still! They had the raw material, but didn’t want to put in the necessary blood, sweat, and tears. </p>
<p>So no, now they aren’t like my kids. They haven’t learned what my kids have learned, or accomplished what my kids have accomplished, and so my kids and students like them want to attend college with other students who have worked hard developing their minds and talents. That doesn’t mean only HYPS etc., but it doesn’t mean Podunk U either.</p>
Please.</p>