<p>My violinist S is trying to decide between Yale (music? classics?) and Lawrence (BM/BA double degree). He's leaning toward Yale but the thought persists that the undergrad musical education/environment would be better at Lawrence. S is not 100% sure that he wants to be a professional musician; but maybe. We visited Lawrence and were very impressed with the conservatory and the college, but S is also very aware that it's much harder to get into Yale than into Lawrence and that the intellectual ambiance at Lawrence wouldn't be that of Yale. Should he resist the pull of the Ivy League?</p>
<p>No? Well, I personally wouldnât. Yale is well, Yale. Iâm sure you understand its reputation, and if your son ever wanted to change his major, Yale would be a better place to be.</p>
<p>Having gone to college in WI and been on the Lawrence campus many times, and living near Yale and having gone there many times, I mean no disrespect to Lawrence but this isnât a conversation. Go to Yale. If you donât like it, you can transfer to Lawrence after a year. But going from Lawrence to Yale after a year, well, not likely.</p>
<p>Add to that that if youâre going to study classics, the resources at Yale are infinitely superior to almost anywhere, that Yaleâs music faculty is top notch, there are performances of all kind of music at Yale, and you can hop a train and be in NYC in less than two hours.</p>
<p>Worth the read again even if youâve seen it before [Peabody</a> Institute - Conservatory Admissions: The Double Degree Dilemma](<a href=âhttp://www.peabody.jhu.edu/doubledegree]Peabodyâ>http://www.peabody.jhu.edu/doubledegree)</p>
<p>A couple of current active threads with a similar question:
<a href=âhttp://talk.collegeconfidential.com/music-major/913597-yale-juilliard.html[/url]â>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/music-major/913597-yale-juilliard.html</a>
<a href=âhttp://talk.collegeconfidential.com/music-major/904754-harvard-nec-after-attending-harvard.html[/url]â>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/music-major/904754-harvard-nec-after-attending-harvard.html</a></p>
<p>My personal observation and experience of those with Yale and other Ivy backgrounds and professional performance experience/careers indicates that those that were âsuccessfulâ had the ability to study with high level ânameâ faculty, either within the auspices of the program parameters, or privately. Most of these relationships were formed prior to matriculation, and tended to be centered around development of the solo, chamber, and small ensemble, and not the orchestral based repertoire.</p>
<p>As Iâve said previously, Yale may well be able to position a student for continued MM performance pursuit and professional goals. It will not necessarily work for all.</p>
<p>If the academics are of prime concern, then there are few options that many deem equal or better. Musically, there can well be better undergrad options. It depends on the student.</p>
<p>Just my $.02.</p>
<p>violadad, as usual, summarizes it well, and the virtues and potential limits of Yale undergrad music have been discussed extensively. But as to classics, there is no doubt that Yale has the edge here - phenomenal faculty (though the faculty at Lawrence seems very well qualified, there are only 3, which would mean that there will be fewer courses to choose from by a longshot). Iâve âauditedâ the Roman architecture course at Yale, online (check out Yale Open Courses, Diana Kleiner) and it was breathtaking - really wonderful. So if there is a real possibility of majoring in Classics, Yale is the clear winner here on that front. If Lawrence is the choice, and classics is the major, be sure to consider ICCS - Duke for a semester in Rome.</p>
<p>With apologies to any who may take umbrage at this, Lawrence is simply not the caliber of conservatory to make it worth giving up Yale. If it were Oberlin or Bard it would be a different situation, but giving up a world-class university with a major music school attached for a not-so-selective conservatory doesnât make a lot of sense to me.</p>
<p>the counter argument would be that Lawrence is a nurturing place (one of the colleges that change lives?) and if this studentâs violin skills are not yet at the level where Yale would give him credit for lessons, etc., he might be able at Lawrence to really focus on violin and hone those skills - and if that is a priority, then it is well worth considering; going to Yale could mean, for the less than stellar violinist at freshman age, that music will become an avocation at the EC level. Lawrence looks like a fine opportunity for a double degree - that would also give the student an extra year of music. Or perhaps, as some have, he could transfer to Oberlin later and continue the double degree there.</p>
<p>Thanks to all for your very helpful comments.<br>
Yep, my sense is Oberlin is a better conservatory than Lawrence, but my S was waitlisted at Oberlin, and we have to deal with the choices he has. I do have it from a reliable source that Lawrenceâs symphony orchestra is much better than Yaleâs undergraduate symphony orchestra. If someone thinks otherwise, please let me know. What I worry about most is my son being unable to/choosing not to take the violin seriously at Yale, due to competing interests. But then, if that happens, he probably wasnât meant to be a musician in the first place.
As a side comment, I wasnât that impressed with Oberlin overall. Lawrenceâs campus was more attractive, the students and staff were much more friendly, and Iâd rather live in Appleton than in Oberlin OH. All in all Lawrence was extremely appealing and Iâll certainly encourage my other S to consider it, when heâs older and looking into colleges.
I will let you know what my older son decides. He told me he thought heâd be less unhappy at Yale thinking he should have gone to a conservatory than at Lawrence thinking he should have gone to the Ivy League. (He got into HYP and C. But didnât practice enough for the conservatories, at least thatâs my read on it.) So my bet is on Yale. But this is going to be one decision he makes on his own, because I donât want blame years later.</p>
<p>The Yale Symphony Orchestra is (usually) very good. Many students donât manage to get inâwhich is why there are at least three other undergraduate orchestras run by students. I canât compare it with Lawrence, however. In general, the music scene is quite vibrant at Yale, and there are many opportunities to play at all levels. The music major does not include a performance track, and as somebody else noted, not everyone can get lessons for credits (you can still get lessons, though, if you are willing to pay for them). Itâs quite true that a Yale student with a lot of other interests is not likely to spend many hours a day practicing the violin unless it is already a strong passion for him.</p>
<p>But I have to say that based on what youâve said, Yale is still the clear choice for this student.</p>
<p>I just want to say that I appreciate the thoughtfulness of both the OPâs question as well as the subsequent responses. I havenât spent much time on other sections of CC, but my occasional forays into other sections of the site tend to make me lose faith in humanity. Posting a thread with this kind of title would probably not be a thoughtful discussion of whatâs truly in the best interests of a particular student, but the usual nonsense, had it been posted in some of the other forums. </p>
<p>And, regardless of the actual outcome, I applaud the OP and the other posters for being open-minded, and pursuing due diligence in the search for the best fit for her son, instead of relying solely on rankings, myths, or vague notions quality absent any actual facts.</p>
<p>Clover: Please PM me if you like and I will tell you as much as I can about violin study at Yale. </p>
<p>I am not professionally qualified to respond to this statement: âI have it from a reliable source that Lawrenceâs symphony orchestra is much better than Yaleâs undergraduate symphony orchestraâ so I will only say that it is possible to listen to some representative performances on the Yale website of the undergraduate Department of Music to form an opinion about the strength of the undergraduate ensembles. </p>
<p><a href=âWelcome | Department of Musicâ>Welcome | Department of Music;
<p>I can also send links to downloads of more recent performances if you PM me. I can say that the conductors and guest conductors have been associated with professional symphonies, and that there are quite a few musicians in the YSO who have transferred in from or had been accepted to conservatories like Juilliard, Eastman, Oberlin, NEC, etc. </p>
<p>Mamenyu makes a good point about the nurturing and training of a musician, and the specialized focus of the conservatory which is dedicated to that end, versus the very real challenges at a university with regards to accessing violin studios, practice rooms and ensembles. At Yale, this is a competitive (meaning auditioned) situation and the way an undergraduate student ends up pursuing their musical studies is completely and totally individual. However, as Hunt points out, there are quite a few orchestras and other ensembles at Yale, and most students who are passionate about continuing with their music seem to find a way to do so. </p>
<p>Congratulations to your son and best wishes in the decision making process.</p>
<p>S chose Yale. Thanks again, everyone!</p>
<p>Clover, congrats to your Son. </p>
<p>If you could share a little of your decision process, it might prove helpful to those faced with a similar dilemma down the road.</p>
<p>Clover, congratulations! See you at concerts in New Haven come fall!</p>
<p>Stringkeymom and CloverAtMidnightâhope to see both of you at concerts in New Haven in the fall :-)</p>
<p>Clarimom, you have one graduating and another starting in the fall, correct? Congratulations!</p>
<p>Yes, so the good news is I wonât even have to remove the window decals from my car 
Four more years of Yale! Hooray!</p>
<p>Well, it was my sonâs decision, truly. Iâm afraid I remained torn to the end. I think for my S, in a nutshell, it was the hefty pull of the Ivy League, coupled with the strong reputation of Yale in music. I reminded him that one can get sort of lost in a big school, that he will have classes led by TAs, that the smaller school has a conservatory and he could get two degrees⊠but in the end, those factors werenât compelling enough for him, especially since heâd read compelling arguments for the larger, Ivy school. He did read everything written here in CC.
I hope his decision was the right one. They are both good schools so either one would probably have been fine. Itâs up to him now!</p>
<p>Yes, it has been really really hard and sad to say ânoâ to schools that S knew he could be very happy at. My S had both conservatories and universities as well as many great teachers to choose from. I think my S thought about how difficult it is to get accepted by Yale or other Ivies (and even more difficult to try to transfer to later if he wanted to) and how unique the undergraduate experience is at Yale, and in the end it came out with the longest list of âprosâ for him. I think your S will do just fine at Yaleâit is a great place.</p>
<p>Clarimom wrote: âFour more years of Yale! Yay!â Yes! My son today was feeling very sorrowful today in his weekly phone call; he lamented that his first year at Yale was over and that he would have to leave Yale some day. He had been invited to a wonderful lunch at a professorâs house where he met some graduate students, and another professor who started at Yale as an undergraduate and never left. He seemed very interested as to how to bring something like that about and I think he is laying plans to move in there permanent. Where is your number one son headed? Will you be at commencement?</p>
<p>Clover: Be reassured that very few classes are taught by TAâs, especially as compared to other schools of similar calibre that shall remain unnamed by me here. I think your son is going to love Yale, but I do empathize with the difficulty of the decision, as I think most of the music parents and students in this corner of CC do. The music department at Yale and the music ensembles create a small school feel within the larger university campus and so do the residential colleges, which truly are as excellent a system as touted. I have been very impressed at how the music department faculty support the music students, even writing letters on their behalf to other faculty to request they be excused from class for rehearsals, arranging their accompanists, helping them set up recitals, etc. See you next year!</p>
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