<p>If this year is the same as the last couple, we should soon see a flood of threads about "please help me make a decision about ....". I personally had been thinking that we will pick financial package over school quality. Laterly, I thinking I start to have second thought about the idea.</p>
<p>As a poor international applicant, I came to this country attending one of the lowest ranking Ph.D. offering school because they gave me a financial package. During many of the classes and seminars, I would constantly be reminded of the quality of my peer students. Evenso most classes offered were reviews of basic college level classes, professors had to go over some materials several times. In my second semester, with half decent English, I took 5 core graduate school courses and got straight A's. That was on top of my RA assignments. Later on in my industrial career, I also felt that I was not nearly as well prepared. </p>
<p>I talked to DD about that. She said she experienced the same thing. In her old HS where only 60% of the graduates goes to colleges, she was bored to death in the most of the classes. At her current HS which ranks in the top 50 of the country, she has to really work on it to keep up. </p>
<p>My point, I guess, is that based on the stats posted on CC, I could see the difference in terms of quality of applicants. Her safety is a decent school by average standard, but I think she may not be challenged enough there. </p>
<p>It may cost a little more money, but I am changing my mind about this "fit" thing.</p>
<p>Dad II: As we sit and wait for the decision packages from colleges for DD, I find myself with the same thoughts. We had always said that we would ultimately choose the best school that offered the most generous package. Now, as the reality of having to make a choice draws ever closer, I can see how difficult it will be to weigh "best school" vs "best package". At the end of the day, I hope that when all acceptances/packages have come in, that somehow the right choice for DD will be clearly evident.</p>
<p>With that in mind, are there any parents out there who could give some practical advice about how to compare the quality of education from perhaps a lesser-known school that offers you a scholarship vs. a more reputable school where you have to pay? DD was offered a full-tuition scholarship to a small LAC - her safety. I know this will complicate the decision process after all the decisions come in. But, how do you know? Do you pick up certain cues while visiting campus? I guess I'm just a little sceptical....</p>
<p>I think quality is hugely variable in graduate school and it does matter a lot- seminars are very small, the quality of the professors you are working with and their reputation in the field matters a huge amount. </p>
<p>I do not think it is so variable in undergraduate school. Or let me qualify that- at least not nearly as variable as the rankings and university marketing departments want you to believe. To me it would depend on how much difference in money and how much difference in school quality (e.g. I am not convinced that choosing between #7 and #40 makes any difference at all). As a professor who has spent years at a top 10, a top 15, having been a visiting prof at a HYPS, and now by choice at a school you don't know (and my husband and many of my colleagues have moved around just as much), variability is ridiculously overrated. The profs and pedagogy and materials are the same. The students might vary in work ethic, but there are many many very brilliant students at tons of schools (because of finances, because of geography, because they couldn't care less about retaking a SAT). </p>
<p>It also depends on major and career plans and very specific things you are looking for. If my kid was majoring in say psychology or accounting, most schools would offer pretty much the same thing all the way down the line. If my kid wants investment banking, I'd be looking at who recruits at each school. If my kid wants to go into a specialty area (as she's currently thinking, say industrial design), I would care foremost about the quality of the design program at each school, and couldn't care less about overall ranking (e.g. U of Cinncinati would be MUCH better than going to Yale). I could go on and on but a focus on stats misses huge amounts of information.</p>
<p>That makes sense. I have been considering her area of interest and have been viewing stats for each of the schools she applied to. I just wonder if I am over-reading into things. There is a site that provides stats of # of students in each major. While I don't want to read too much into it, does that speak of the quality of the department itself? Fewer students means less quality or less focus in that area?</p>
<p>arjgn, if you have not already, consider using the search feature, probably using "merit aid" or the poster curmudgeon. Someone correct me if he is not considered an "authority" on merit aid around here. I must admit this strategy has taken me on a wild journey, but this subject has been discussed several times and some of the posts have been helpful to me. At least with regard to something to do while I wait and evolve.</p>
<p>I let my d make that decision based not on rankings, but on her feelings about the student body and about classes she sat in on. There's so much more to "learning" in college than just the classroom. She went to overnights to the school that gave her about 1/2 tuition, and to the one that gave her less but still something. She found the students more engaged and more stimulating to talk with, and the classes more challenging, at the latter.That's where she is now, and she's very happy, even though it's costing us about twice as much as the other would have!</p>
<p>
[quote]
It may cost a little more money, but I am changing my mind about this "fit" thing.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Dad II, I think it matters if it is a "little more money" or a "lot more money". Trade-offs matter, they are part of life.</p>
<p>If I remember correctly, your daughter has applied to at least a couple of high-ranked privates that offer merit scholarships. Do you still have the same question if she gets into one of them with a significant award, or are you thinking Ivy-or-nothing now?</p>
<p>My son's experience is not so relevant for most who are considering this issue, since his scholarship school is a high-ranked private, but it is one of the schools Dad II's daughter was considering at one time (maybe still??) He has taken full advantage of all opportunities, is doing research as a freshman, has joined groups with other students who share his academic interests, enrolls in advanced courses, has gotten to know his professors, and is getting a great education--and enjoying himself--at very minimal expense to us or himself. </p>
<p>It would have been idiotic to walk away from this offer, but he (we) nearly did. I think you should think long and hard about making significant sacrifices on the alter of prestige.</p>
<p>This is such a complicated topic. Very difficult to generalize here. Every situation has to be judged on its own merits. A few random thoughts as a parent who supported a child who went through this decision process:<br>
- Expensive doesn't always equal better. Some of us have been trained to think that way, but it's not always true. You have to try to evaluate the situation objectively, and encourage your child to do so as well.
- Sitting in classes is a great way to learn about the academic differences. But don't judge based on just one class. Quality can vary by major and there are "stinker" and "star" professors at every school.
- Quality honors programs can add another dimension to be considered. Might provide access to smaller, more intense classes. Ask lots of questions.
- At least in our family, $ is not an unlimited resource. However, if you're willing to pay top dollar for a school, why not also consider returning some $ to your child if a cheaper option is selected? That money can go to fund study abroad, grad school, etc (I'm not crazy about buying cars - I like something related to education - just me though). Education is not all about sitting in a classroom - it's much broader than that.
- Forget about the rankings - especially if they're in the same band. Can you really argue that #30 is significantly better than #45 on the US News List? It's not like you're comparing Yale with Podunk U.
- Some kids don't mind being on top of the pile. Other kids hate it. What kind of kid do you have?
- Brand names? Well, that's a point of contention on these boards. Some think going to a brand name helps. Well, maybe. Enough to spend 100K more? Enough to make your kid take on significant loans? I read an article yesterday about a kid who graduated from Boston U with 100k in loans. Worth it? Hmmm... </p>
<ul>
<li>Go in with an open mind. Include some merit schools on the list and see how it works out. You might be surprised. No obligation...but why not check it out? Wait until the offers come in and then make your choice...</li>
</ul>
<p>midmo, I am not sure I understand your families experience. Are you saying you did NOT have to sacrifice quality when your son chose merit aid? Are you saying "prestige" may not be worth significant financial sacrifice but the qualities you noted are important to look for when accepting merit aid?</p>
<p>
[quote]
The profs and pedagogy and materials are the same. The students might vary in work ethic, but there are many many very brilliant students at tons of schools
[/quote]
got to disagree a lot of this one ... on a couple fronts ... </p>
<ul>
<li><p>I'd bet pretty big bucks that physics 101 at UMass and Physics 101 at MIT are just a tad different. <em>Some</em> schools do push students more than others and the better the pool of students the more the potential for the school to push. That said physics 101 at UMass is probably just fine for providing the fundamentals to get into a grad engineering school or a PhD program ... but others schools may do an even better job of prepping kids.</p></li>
<li><p>Different kids react differently to different situations ... some kids will push themselves if they are the big fish in a small pond; learn as much as they would have at a higher "ranked" school and given this personality likely take additional opportunities from being a top student at the school. At the same time other kids will tend towards the norm ... and the norm academic focus at UMass is nothing like the norm at MIT.</p></li>
</ul>
<p>I believe ... tons of schools can provide a solide learning environment for lots of kids ... however this list varies for each kid ... and that there are substantial differences in educational experiences school to school</p>
<p>In answer to your first question: we feel our son has not sacrificed quality by accepting a merit scholarship to a school that is somewhat lower ranked than one many prestige-obsessed folks think he should have attended. We don't feel any loss of quality at all, to be honest. </p>
<p>Second question: I don't think Prestige is worth much at all at for very good students. Outgoing, energetic, focused students will rise to the top anywhere, and get noticed. For my son, important factors included the ability to do research right away, permission to enroll in advanced courses early in his program, the ability to double-major across schools, accessibility of professors, undergraduates allowed to enroll in graduate courses at some point, perceived importance of undergraduate program to university administrators. He checked these things out ahead of time. Fit was important, in other words, but the rank of the program was not so much a factor. Other factors will be important for other students.</p>
<p>First of all, after many months on CC, I have like way passed this "prestige" thing. It is about the learning experiences. I just felt it will be better to have DD in a school where majority of the students are in the same range as her. For both in and outside the classroom, I would think a more driven and challenging environment will help DD to grow. </p>
<p>DD applied to 8 schools, I would pay more to go to any one of the top 6 (if she gets in).</p>
<p>There are some schools (Caltech and MIT come to mind) where even the beginning courses make demands on even the brightest students. For my older son they would have been worth every penny. Just my opinion, but I think the stretching would have been good for him. As it happens he was rejected by both and it boiled down to Harvard (#1 overall, but not in computer science) and Carnegie Mellon (#25 or so, but its grad school is tied for #1 in computer science). You know who's ratings - we won't go there... For my kid CMU was the right choice, but I do think there's a difference in the student body which would make me favor Harvard for a more well rounded kid who was less sure of his or her direction. </p>
<p>For me the important thing is that there is a critical mass of bright students and courses offered that will challenge them. Sometimes this means courses a less bright kid wouldn't dream of taking. Even at Harvard, only the math whizzes sign up for Math 55. I assume other universities have similar courses that cater to a faster more advanced pace. Another Harvard example - there was a French course I was intrigued by, but never took, because it required reading a big fat 19th century novel in French every single week. I found another course with many of the same novels, but not the same grueling pace. </p>
<p>The problem is that most kids don't know what they want to do and it's not usually that easy to figure out just how many intellectually motivated kids are on a campus, so the calculus of just how much debt is worth just how much possibly better student body and/or professors is really hard to make. </p>
<p>I think there are also kids who will challenge themselves and go beyond whatever it takes to get As at the supposedly lesser institution. While some, like my son, have a bit of a lazy streak, and will do better in a place that gives them a big shove in the right direction.</p>
<p>First, academic rigor is not for everyone and not necessarily even for very bright and capable kids. Some kids don't want and may not do well in an overly challenging environment. They would rather have less challenging academics and more time for a social life, sports, for classes outside of their major, etc. They may do better as the big fish in the small pond and really hate dropping from the top of the HS class to the middle or bottom of the pack. They may not like struggling to earn B's, C's or worse. There is nothing wrong with the less rigorous approach to education, although many parents and kids don't seem to want to admit it. After 4 years they may be ready to consider graduate school. The kid from a more rigorous program may be better prepared but just worn out and not ready to continue. </p>
<p>Picking the best academic fit may mean starting with some serious soul searching rather than just trying for those reach schools.</p>
<p>The concern is about cost versus value. Often the choice is between the low cost State school and a high cost private school. There are plenty of private schools that are no more rigorous than the State schools. They may not even have the same level of programs and many are struggling to survive. Unless your kid has special needs or is interested in a special program, it is hard for me to understand the value of spending a great deal of money to get an education which may not be any better than at the State school. Personally, I just don't understand how so many expensive, but mediocre, private colleges can survive.</p>
<p>When it comes to the highly selective, elite colleges the costs can be worth it. I definitely agree with DADII. At some private colleges the educational level is very high. By comparison courses at the State school may seem more like HS level rather than college level. So how do you judge if the costs are worth it? First I think it is most important to look at the individual student. If possible, ignore the reputation and pride of being accepted to an elite college. Is your kid really academically motivated? Will they do well in a challenging environment? How mature are they? Will moving into a dorm and starting college be a big enough challenge? Have they spent time away from home? Grades can be another concern. Harvard may give everyone A grades, but at some other colleges that is not the case. Will your kid get into law school, med school or grad school if they have a great education, but mediocre grades in college?</p>
<p>edad, agree in principal but reality is often different. We had to look our slacker, lazy 17 year old in the eye when evaluating if he could really cut it at MIT. He claimed he got in; therefore someone felt he could do the work. We were skeptical but figured if he dropped out there'd be other places he could get into.</p>
<p>He rose to the challenge like we could never have anticipated. He worked like a dog (never had really applied himself in HS so it was hard to tell where the natural ability ended and the work ethic would kick in); he was active in several campus organizations with a significant leadership role in one of them; he started doing research for a professor Sophomore year and by the time he graduated had done research for both credit and $; his grades were by no means perfect but he earned every single one of them-- no such thing as a "gentleman C" at MIT-- in some classes C's are highly prized as evidence that you worked your way up from the bottom quartile of the class.</p>
<p>He would have been a poster child for sending him someplace cheap to see if he would grow up but we didn't feel that was fair to him- he seemed committed to "raising his game" surrounded by absolutely brilliant and high achieving peers and we were reluctant to deny him that chance.</p>
<p>So- it worked out even though logic should have dictated that he take the free ride at our State U. And when I look at the man he's become I realize that making a prediction about the maturity level of a 17 year old adolescent is a really hard thing to do. He told me recently that someone at work had said, "the kids we hire out of MIT may or may not be more brilliant than anyone else.... but they always work harder than anyone else so that's why we do it". </p>
<p>A back-handed compliment for sure, but in many ways it validates the decision to spend the money (if you can swing it...)/</p>
<p>There is no evidence that had your son gone to state U he wouldn't have worked just as hard, availed himself of just as many opportunities, found equally brilliant and high achieving peers, and been just as satisfied with his education and employment options. (And I too am an MIT grad!)</p>
<p>What Chedva said makes sense to me. If you go into this process looking for multiple schools that would be great for your kid whatever school offers the best package will also be a great school for them. I'm sure it's partly because I am a west coast native but I just don't buy into all of the IVY/ranking hype to the degree that it outweighs other considerations </p>
<p>I don't really thinks it's that complicated. If my D applies and gets into Scripps or Colorado College, the most selective and prestigious schools on her current list, and we can't make it work with the packages they offer she will go to one of the other wonderful school on her list that offers her more $$$. </p>
<p>Even if they offer similar packages, fit is more important than prestige. As an example one of my D's safeties is not a prestigious school but they do have a certain amount of renown for their pre-med program. Tuition is a bargain, plus Ds current stats would net her a 10,500 presidential award which would put the cost of her attendance there on par with a well know public in our state which is also on her list. If it turns out that this safety, which she loves, makes it most attractive financially that's where she will probably go because it fits her better than the larger public even though the public has more name recognition.</p>
<p>I graduated with too much debt. One of my goals as a parent is to help my kids avoid my financial mistakes. I don't think the cachet' of name recognition is worth the cost...probably the same reason I don't buy name brands unless they are on sale.</p>