Young males and relevant teaching techniques

Parents Forum
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<p>Background: male high school junior</p>

<p>RE compliance
I definitely understand how some guys have trouble working within stupid, pointless little sets of rules. There have been times this year when I’ve been tempted to just write “The cat ran fast” over and over again for AP Lang essays because the class is so pointless. But here’s the thing: I don’t do it. I’m just a high school kid, but I’d be willing to bet a fair amount of money that everyone has to do something they don’t want to do at some point in life. Bill Gates probably had plenty of times where he went along with the status quo because he had to in order to accomplish his goals. Yes, creativity is important. But learning how to suck it up and execute even when it isn’t oh-so-perfectly-interesting matters too.</p>

<p>RE fantasy games

I’m not trying to pick a fight here, but I don’t like the way you equate things like Magic to sports. I used to have some pretty vitriolic feelings towards organized athletics (which I basically saw as a scam when you could just exercise on your own for free), but I’ve changed my view on that. Nobody fully understands how the human mind works, but physical activity definitely works a different part of the mind from a board game and for me at least it makes a huge difference in terms of mental cleansing.</p>

<p>I also want to second what BigAppleDaddy said about personal interaction. I play chess everyday, often for several hours. However, that does not replace debating or playing ping-pong or anything else precisely because it does not involve truly interacting with another person.</p>

<p>RE learning environments
I’d like to see more opportunities for kinesthetic learners in the classroom. Working something out across a whiteboard instead of on a piece of paper can make a big difference in terms of attention span.</p>

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<p>No, but people need to realize that it’s not the fault of hardworking girls that their boys are not doing as well. It’s the attitude that “Oh well of course boys won’t do as well, they’re boys, they’re better at running around a lot.” that hurts boys. The idea that boys can’t do things like read Greek, Latin, and fine literature as well as the sciences is silly- Men have traditionally been taught all those things for thousands of years, in a manner not too different from today, where fidgeting would get you whipped or beaten, not scolded. Women have (usually, and until the modern era) been taught to run households and sew, not to read, write or do any humanities. The idea that suddenly our men and boys can’t learn as easily all of a sudden because girls are doing well is utterly stupid. </p>

<p>The fact is that girls were held to a higher standard “Oh she’s smart…for a girl. That was a good throw, for a girl. I can’t believe a girl beat me at ____!” so they were forced to work harder to prove them selves. Until recently, men were only working around other men in schools, under similar systems as are used today. There was no female competition. If you didn’t perform as well, it was because you weren’t as good of a student, not because you “were just behaving like a boy” or “doing well for a girl.” Now women are in education in large numbers, and are actively working to do better than their counterparts, in order to succeed. But still, men, lag…because they’ve been able to cruise for so long. Even a bad student back in those days could get a decent job, and be assured of a college education. Heck, back in the day, harvard still accepted C students. </p>

<p>The times have changed; but women aren’t at fault for men failing to move forwards at their rate. </p>

<p>I wouldn’t say that education is necessarily male biased, just that the standards of education we use to this day are based off of school systems from Greece and Rome that were largely solely for men, and invented by men. Even in britan, for quite a long time, men were the only ones attending grammar school. It took much longer for it to be acceptable for a woman to do the same thing- education used to be a man’s game. Women have had to catch up to their teaching methods, their styles, and the male experience of schooling. That’s not necessarily biased, they’ve just had a few thousand years of a head start.</p>

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<p>Sounds like you have a truly bad teacher. AP english language is a great class, full of rhetoric and logic. (Incidentally the joke goes that we “may as well call logic ‘How 5th century greek males think’, because it really was forms created by men, taught to other men in academies that started off what we know to be traditional “classical” academies today.” - my philosophy textbook says exactly this. Heh.) </p>

<p>But I take AP Literature this year, and while I love to read, I have slipped in a few lyrics of Shakira’s “Hips Don’t lie” into an essay to see if my teacher noticed. They didn’t. I’m going to guess no one likes pointless or stupid rules, or feeling like their class is useless. Not even girls.</p>

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<p>According to my son, the real reason the girls at his school get better grades than the boys is that they are willing to go to the teachers and ask for grades to be changed and to cry. Even when my son hasn’t been given partial credit for something he thinks he should have gotten, he won’t ask for it.</p>

<p>NHS at our school is 50/50 as far as I can tell, but neither of my boys were interested in participating. They did some community service, but not the types of activities NHS got involved in. They were definitely not interested in going to extra meetings with a teacher they disliked and all the most brown-nosing type students.</p>

<p>Finally I’ll join the chorus of those who think that card and strategy games our worthy activities. Plenty of face to face interaction, plenty of higher order thinking going on. I personally think it’s too bad that we don’t play more games like this. This is not to say that sports aren’t also valuable in a different way, and that exercise is critical for our health.</p>

<p>As for the original rant. I do think some teachers have picayune requirements that girls are more willing to fulfill than some boys. But the real world is pretty similar.</p>

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LOL. I heard Plato had a private tutor to help him out.</p>

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One problem is that CollegeBoard set an abysmal curriculum for AP Lang. I could have 5’d the exam on the first day of class this year.</p>

<p>EDIT: The teacher is indeed terrible.</p>

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<p>Before anyone attacks me, just know that I’m a naive highschooler.</p>

<p>According to the college, there are consistently more males who score in the upprt levels for the SAT. This is like 55% t0 45%, but still a noticeable difference. So maybe there are more males at the extremes of the population, that’s why they “led the world” and also are some of the poorest (ie bums)? Just an idea.</p>

<p>Also, could it be that males are more competitive and driven, but at the same time more loyal? I know I study harder when we do “AP Gov March Madness.” Maybe it’s that men find what they truly like in life, after school, and then pursue it deeply? Whereas girls do what they’re told (more so than guys)? </p>

<p>Personally, I know I try a lot harder when the difficulty increases. Maybe this is true for males in general? They rise up for the competition?</p>

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<p>This is a problem more at some schools (or with some teachers) than others. In the case of “whining” for better grades; well, that’s just poor performance by both the teachers and the students. That’s part of the educational system that needs fixed. It’s appalling. On the other hand, asking for partial credit somewhere where partial credit should be earned - or asking for a re-grade when an answer was accidentally marked incorrect - is a matter of standing up for oneself.</p>

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<p>“According to the college, there are consistently more males who score in the upprt levels for the SAT. This is like 55% t0 45%, but still a noticeable difference. So maybe there are more males at the extremes of the population, that’s why they “led the world” and also are some of the poorest (ie bums)? Just an idea.”</p>

<p>It’s well accepted that males have a higher standard deviation in IQ than females. Though that seems irrelevant. It’s not significantly different until you get out to something like 3 STDs from the median. Most of the time these people aren’t the ones on the boards of directors or the senate building.</p>

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<p>He was kidding, right?</p>

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<p>URGggg! I relate to some of you here and totally, totally disagree with others! I’m a teacher and a mom of boys…</p>

<p>Last year, my son’s essay was all about his “interest” in gaming and with it, got into a top tier university. Of course, he also had to have the grades and the scores, and the ECs. He had those too. And: alas! He was even inducted into the NHS! In our school, kids have to have a 4.0 + volunteer hours + recommendations on character and leadership. His EC involved creating a tutoring program at our local elementary school for kids who were there for the afterschool daycare program. His “other” favorite activity involved gaming, every single aspect of gaming. He started a business in MS, renting game cartridges. He also became a paid consultant. But his true love was/is in game development. So, you see, not only does he enjoy playing, but he also uses his interests to create something much, much more.</p>

<p>And yes, I see the contrast too: the grade grubbers, the valedictorians, the award winners, and of course, the teacher-pleasers. I saw it when my oldest son went to Math/Science awards night as a HS freshman 8 years ago. I was shocked to see the disparity between girls and guys. The girls won over 75% of the awards that night. And why? They were the compliance officers, the rule-followers.</p>

<p>So where do boys succeed? For quite some time, it seemed that boys found success as athletes or musicians, but that’s no longer the only avenues (see quote below). My kids relate to characters on shows like “The Office”, “The Daily Show with Jon Stewart” and “Scrubs”. Which is a relief since my kids aren’t musicians or athletes. And when they were young, they preferred to watch “Bill Nye, the Science Guy” than football.</p>

<p>So please rescind this old-fashioned belief. It doesn’t relate anymore:

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<p>^^^ applicannot</p>

<p>Basically. I’ve actually noticed girls are more likely to get help from teachers who offer it as well. Math tutoring? Usually one guy, and five girls, though three different classes were invited. </p>

<p>My Lang/lit teachers have both offered to schedule appointments for major essays/projects to go over work before a grade, and most of the girls signed up. (So did most of the boys, but I’ve noticed AP in our school is a tight knit group- we all do about the same things.)</p>

<p>My government teacher offers test prep after school. Only one person showed the first day- a girl. </p>

<p>I can’t say boys don’t show up and take advantage of these things as well, I’m only in AP classes this semester, so the sample I have is skewed. But last semester the “regular” lit class I took for fun also had a teacher willing to go over his laughably easy and broad essay assignments. Most of the boys did not bother with this. </p>

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<p>…No. SAT scores do not account for the fact that around the world, men make up the majority of national political leaders. Patriarchy accounts for that.</p>

<p>Boys are not more loyal, or disobediant, or competitive, or driven. They’re just boys. Same with girls. Unfortunately, the girls who are competitive or driven may be rejected in favor of boys who are less qualified, even if they were not competing, in order to “help boys”. </p>

<p>If boys are truly more competitive, then I would wager to say they’re being challenged by just as many smart girls, and need to try harder, if your theory is correct. (I don’t agree, but let’s go with this) If you’re right about that, then what “boys” need to realize is that even the most dull and mundane class is going to earn them a grade that will be added to their application as a whole, and that for any school, the challenge of getting in is very tough, and requires them to rise up to it, and that cramming at the last moment is not preferrable to slow, steady, and consistantly good work. </p>

<p>If you are right, then boys are not being told what I was told all my life when something did not flex my intelligence: “Suck it up, and do the work anyways. It’s important.”</p>

<p>Somehow I do not think that solves the whole problem.</p>

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<p>@limabeans: The OP was referring to guys who struggle with established high school academics. Your son obviously did not fit this category.</p>

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<p>@ Sirensong Do you have boys or girls? Thought so.</p>

<p>@mathmom, “According to my son, the real reason the girls at his school get better grades than the boys is that they are willing to go to the teachers and ask for grades to be changed and to cry. Even when my son hasn’t been given partial credit for something he thinks he should have gotten, he won’t ask for it.” True, true, true, my kids tell me the same thing, over and over.</p>

<p>@hahalolk: “I know I study harder when we do “AP Gov March Madness.” … Whereas girls do what they’re told (more so than guys)?” I think that’s because boys prefer to have information relate, while girls make their own connection.</p>

<p>@BigAppleDaddy: “I’ve found that one thing that (surprisingly to me at least) generally energize’s S’s friends in school: humor.” This is true for my kids too. In fact, one of my kids in particular is generally known for his sense of humor, which he uses in many ways: in the plays he stars in, in the student newspaper he writes for, etc.</p>

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<p>limabeans, I have no idea what you are talking about. I am a male high school student, who has worked very hard for my academic record. As far as my experience, males and females are given completely even footing when it comes to school. But if more males tend to let their grades suffer as they spend hours every day playing video games or obsessing over basketball brackets, it’s their own dumb fault. Maybe some of them straighten out later on, but that doesn’t mean that the US secondary system failed them, it means that it simply took a while for them to get their priorities straight.</p>

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<p>Okay Yurtle…</p>

<p>Here’s what says you’re wrong, at least about the personality traits of males vs. females.</p>

<p>Why are so many world leaders men?</p>

<p>[Frequency</a> of Personality Types by Population & Gender](<a href=“http://www.mypersonality.info/personality-types/population-gender/]Frequency”>What is the Most Common and Rarest Personality Type?)</p>

<p>The personality types that really make up the world leaders are ENTP and ENTJ (ENTJ moreso). Males make up about 2/3rds of each of these groups. </p>

<p>Why are so many billionaires men?</p>

<p>[Business</a> statistics for United States](<a href=“http://www.entrepreneur.com/stateguide/us.html]Business”>http://www.entrepreneur.com/stateguide/us.html)</p>

<p>Only 37.4% of those who are self-employed (entrepreneurs are often the ones who become billionaires) are female.</p>

<p>If you’re comment " Unfortunately, the girls who are competitive or driven may be rejected in favor of boys who are less qualified, even if they were not competing, in order to “help boys”." was about college admissions, I agree that gender discrimination is unfair. However, I would also like to point out that there is a bias towards admitting more females in engineering. There’s no worldwide conspiracy to try to keep females down.</p>

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<p>noimagination: As I said, I’m a mom of several boys. </p>

<p>My oldest has Asperger’s and has had a difficult time conforming to “established HS academics”. He’d forget to turn in his homework, even though he’d spend hours on it. He’s also a terrible self-advocate. He’d come home to tell me how kids (the girls) share their exams or take answers from Cliffnotes. This confused him because he heard these kids were the top students. Truth is, my DH and I have always been incredibly involved in their school demands: in terms of those annoying details like when they had to sign up for something. Or reminding him to turn in that homework assignment. (He’s gotten better, I think, in college, but it’s simpler there. Only midterms and finals.)</p>

<p>My 2nd is the gamer. Both have been inducted to NHS.</p>

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<p>^ My point was that your 2nd(?) had time to play video games because he obviously did not need to use that time to succeed in school. BTW, I definitely do not consider development the same thing as passively playing.</p>

<p>Medical conditions such as Asberger’s obviously play a huge role in academic success, but they don’t necessarily argue for changes in “teaching techniques”.</p>

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<p>sirensong: There are two separate aspects under discussion here: academics and down time. Video games are how boys use their down-time. Just because boys enjoy video games does not necessarily mean they aren’t also very studious. The problem isn’t just that boys play games, it’s that the process of school doesn’t connect to boys the same way that it connects to girls.</p>

<p>Think of it this way: from early grades, kids have to learn to sit still, use a pencil, read fictional storybooks. Who prefers these aspects…girls, of course! Boys have much harder time with their fine motor skills (pencil holding), and reading. They prefer non-fiction, etc.</p>

<p>It’s not at all that boys have failed the school system. It is our expectations of what they are capable of. Boys are immature compared to girls, and that disparity grows every year.</p>

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<p>You’ve got to be kidding. In the developed world, women have only been social equals for 100 years or less. In the developing world, there are plenty of nations in which women are forbidden from learning to read, much less offered any kind of education. Do you really think more men are national leaders and billionaires because of some personality test?</p>

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<p>Wow. Hit some nerves here! I think games should be considered like “books”. There are great ones and sordid ones and worthwhile ones and trashy ones. We make a big distinction between card games and board games and video games and computer games. They are four different things with very different qualities (interaction with others, etc). </p>

<p>Still, I think it shows that the majority of our public school teachers are NOT the brightest, finest, most talented people that ever came across their college campus. This is particularly true in grades one through eight. My guys do much, much better when they are with a talented and dedicated teacher. Respecting the teacher seems to be the first step toward seamless compliance. </p>

<p>My guys have spent years of their lives with teachers who had lots of rules but didn’t have the great depth of knowledge that the rapid kid had. This finally changed in middle school with the advent of a terrific science teacher. High school has been much better but still with rough spots that make the days go on forever. </p>

<p>So it has been painful to watch bright kids be miserable and be evaluated for their weaknesses instead of their strengths. I think it impact our whole society. Not enough males are college bound. Not enough males finish college. What to do?</p>