<p>Okay, sorry,I’m talking about the Western world, and only amongst people aged 100 years or younger. </p>
<p>The data I showed gives evidence to a reason as to why those two things would be the case, and were intended only to refute a few sentences by Yurtle.</p>
<p>
Nope, I wish he had been. At other times he’s also said they are more willing to ask if there are things they can do for extra credit. They are much more concerned about grades than the boys are. I don’t however see girls winning 75% of the awards, for the last couple of years the Valedictorian has been a guy, but there are always boys and girls in about equal numbers in the top ten.</p>
<p>Wow. The girls at his school are quite different than were the girls at my kids’ high school, if that’s the case. They were hard working, very disciplined and and quite empowered young women-- student leaders and athletes. No criers. It’s unfortunate that your son wasn’t able to have these kinds of girls around while growing up. My son has enormous respect for girls and women, and I think his classmates helped form his opinions.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Sureee…it has everything to do with personality type and NOTHING to to with the fact that women have only recently been able to vote in some countries, much less RUN for election. </p>
<p>(That title? So? I’m an ENTP with STRONG ENTJ tendancies. And shock! I’m a girl.)</p>
<p>Listen, she’s not my favorite politician in the world, but come talk to me when Hillary Clinton isn’t met with surprise that she’s not back in the kitchen, and Sarah Palin doesn’t have to run her self as a supermom as her qualification (while chiding Hillary for “whining” when the media says something sexist or unfair.) </p>
<p>[Women</a> in Business Are Risk Takers | Business Pundit](<a href=“http://www.businesspundit.com/women-in-business-are-risk-takers/]Women”>Women in Business Are Risk Takers)</p>
<p>[WOMEN</a> BUSINESS OWNERS GENERATE $3 TRILLION IN ANNUAL ECONOMIC IMPACT.](<a href=“http://www.womensbusinessresearchcenter.org/Data/research/economicimpactstud/econimpactreport-final.pdf]WOMEN”>http://www.womensbusinessresearchcenter.org/Data/research/economicimpactstud/econimpactreport-final.pdf)</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Oh of course. It just so happens that more men are “better suited for the job”, and things like rape, female genital mutilation, the women’s lib movement, the fact that we earn less, are held to pointless double standards, and shut down (even often publicly!) when we’re deemed too pretty/a harpy/shrew/airhead/just a “mom”/ditzy or otherwise threatening to men- none of that EVER existed. The sex slave trade? Totally not going to bring any women down, what are you talking about? Men deciding what women should do with their uteruses (because hey, no one wants a fetus placeholder in office)? That should totally not keep women down- Who even needs to be in control of their own body? The fight for maternity leave and the chance of raising children? Well like my dad says, it’s women’s fault for being able to have children, so of course they shouldn’t get a raise! They can’t work as much when they’re having a baby, and that’s why women are at home. Women having to fight for title IX? That wasn’t really keeping us down, or seperate! The right to vote? PSH. We got that FOREVER ago, and no one even said a peep about it! There don’t need to be laws about equality in hiring, and no discrimination against gender! Women are never treated as property and traded like cows, that stuff is all in the past. Societal worth based on polygamy? Pffft. Feminists labeled as man-haters? Never happens! Calling me sweetie, doll, babycakes, sugar, and honey just makes me JUMP for joy, and doesn’t ever bring down or degrade me in a professional setting.</p>
<p>Nope. Nosiree. Those things never happen. </p>
<p>You’re absolutely right! I guess I just lost my head trying to think! </p>
<p>Whelp, guess I should take my silly ideas about “the patriarchal society that is generally accepted as the norm in western culture that often degrades women” and go make my brother a sandwich. He’ll thank me for it later.</p>
<p>Now you’re just getting hostile… I’m out.</p>
<p>The thread has more or less become two different topics anyway. This one not being the OPs intent.</p>
<p>If I misinterpreted hostility (it can be hard to tell without actually talking face to face), PM me and I’ll continue if you want. Otherwise I’m done.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>A true “magnificent wild beast” doesn’t WANT Harvard or Williams.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Or they are lazy and disobedient, often dumb and happy, sometimes angry.</p>
<p>Hey I’m ENTJ too! Weird. </p>
<p>But I think males would have a lot easier time learning if teachers didn’t give out “busy work” - if there doesn’t seem like there’s a point to a homework, it doesn’t get done, or done well.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Hmmm…maybe my disconnection with this thread is that I prefer fiction to nonfiction, and that I have very good fine motor skills. But still, I think that any boy can succeed effectively under the current school system if his parents have raised him to be strongly motivated and accept busywork. Personally, I think that busywork is something that everyone has to learn to accept, girls included.</p>
<p>Yrtle-- You make some fantastic and relevent critical points. Excellent critical thinking. I hope you are planning to go to schools somewhere with a strong gender or queer studies program to develop your thinking even more thoroughly. Good luck to you. I think you will make some important contributions to academia. Make sure to develop strong relationships with your professors in school. You will need and want a mentor.</p>
<p>On the topic of the thread: It is clear that the one-size fits all educational approach is a challenge for many in the population, boys, right now, being the most impacted. It is important to try to solve these “problems” as they come up. </p>
<p>So, what are some of the things some people have seen which HAVE worked, and how can they be applied more regularly?</p>
<p>I know when my daughters were first starting school there was a great deal of research out there on the fact that the system was failing our girls. As parents we sought out answers and we looked for solutions and some of my friends put thier girls in all girls schools because there was a significant amount of evidence that gendered classrooms were the best alternative for girls at the time… We all also told our daughters they would have to work harder than the boys to get the same attention and the same grades. I suspect that is some of what the boys are coming up against right now…a generation of girls who have been told they will have to do twice as much to get the same result. Hence all the willingness to do the extra work.</p>
<p>But, now that the girls are doing better, I only wonder what needs to be done to create an environment where all can succeed. Yurtle is correct in that academia was designed by men for boys and not for girls, and yet the boys are not keeping up. What needs to be done? I wonder.</p>
<p>I dislike most fiction and have abysmal fine motor skills. That doesn’t stop me from succeeding academically.</p>
<p>That isn’t to say that schools can’t do more for guys. Off the top of my head, more male teachers, less busywork, and greater opportunities for kinesthetic learning might all help. But I think many parents try to blame the schools for not understanding poor little Billy when in reality little Billy is just a slacker who needs to suck it up and get his work done.</p>
<p>I wish I could get everyone here a copy of “Genius Denied.” It’s an excellent book about how being intellectually quick can be a huge problem when the quick kid is forced into slow movement – all day long, every day, for years. That’s not a boy/girl thing – it is true for any kid who longs to run (physically or mentally) and is slapped, scolded, humiliated or drugged into moving at a crawl. </p>
<p>Believe me, posters, that I’ve trod the “Suck it up and get it done” road for many, many miles. I am wayyy past that level of thinking. It is part of life. I think back to the boy in My Friend Flicka. The kid has been sent home from boarding school for the summer to his family’s ranch in Montana. He has been labeled a failure who will have to repeat the grade because he failed to write an end of year essay. He tried. He really did. But his brains zoomed out to the prairies and to thoughts of horses every time he sat down and stared at the blank page. </p>
<p>His father is furious with him. Dad would like nothing better than to trade in all the worries of earning a living for a day to sit down and write out a story. </p>
<p>At this point, yelling at the boy does no good. Humiliation, lectures, even repeating a year of school are not going to unfreeze his brain. He needs something different. In his case, he needs his own horse. Having Flicka unfreezes his brain and he finds he does have things to say. </p>
<p>So, sorry, it really doesn’t matter how horrible people have been to each other in the past (males to females, whites to blacks, English to Scots or Irish, filmmakers to actors, or whatever). We are where we are. We are at a place where many young males bomb out at the high school level and are not college bound. OR they are college bound and will soon flame out (See multiple threads on this forum about sons who are flunking out). What do we do from here?</p>
<p>Sorghum wrote:
Quote:
The magnificent wild beast stalks up and down and eventually descends into neurotic behavior.
A true “magnificent wild beast” doesn’t WANT Harvard or Williams.</p>
<p>Right. Any my younger son is not headed to either. We are working hard to get him horizons that he will joyfully run to discover.</p>
<p>
Don’t worry, not all girls in the school are like this, and my son has plenty of female friends. But there is an attitude among the boys (or at least my boy) that you can’t discuss grades with a teacher.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Quoted for truth. In the midst of “leaving no child behind” we’ve lost sight of our highest performers (as a person lacking athletic talent and honing an unnatural attention span, I can’t speak for those who long to run). I remember in Spanish II in ninth grade, I would finish the class work, pipe up from time to time for participation grades, but quietly sit in the back and work in a Spanish workbook I had purchased. I already knew the Spanish II material and was thoroughly bored with the class. I was actually sent to the office for insubordination. What was I doing wrong? I had finished all the assignments, participated, and aced the work. But because I was ahead of the class, I was penalized. I once corrected a teacher’s grammar mistake once (there instead of their) and was given a long lecture about why a) he was right (he wasn’t) and b) I couldn’t possibly know anything more than he did.</p>
<p>
Hollywood likes to pull on our heartstrings.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Why should we be content with work that does not have any enriching value and deters students from actually learning? Students aren’t going to learn when they’re forced to do work they know won’t help them. Even though the work required for me in high school is more difficult that the work required in middle school, I’m actually happier in high school because my high school heavily discourages busy work.</p>
<p>Just remembering back in my elementary school days, boys had a harder time obeying “comprehensive rules” and had (and still have) worse fine motor skills. I’m an exception to most of my male student body. I don’t know which sex was more likely to consider the value of the school work they were doing instead of just doing the work because they were assigned it. I lean towards males on this one, but my evidence is pretty anecdotal.</p>
<p>^ Did you pay your taxes this year? How much paper did you have to shuffle?</p>
<p>There’s a reason why so many people are discontent with the tax code.</p>
<p>I’d like to throw out that most gifted children have a very hard time with busywork. Genius children generally don’t do things that don’t challenge them enough. For example:</p>
<p>I attended pre-school and kindergarten in Singapore. As an asian country, my pre-school classes were filled with reading, maths, cooking, and pre-writing skills. Kindergarten had me reading, writing, learning about the sciences (gravity, for example), math, and learning written chinese (pronounced in mandarin.) </p>
<p>I returned to the states only to be forced to start kindergarten again (the US starts later than singapore does), despite the fact that my mom had kept all my work (including the chinese!) to show to my new school. Once in kindergarten again, I refused to read. I was bored out of my mind, and we were learning basic addition all over again. There was almost no science, and the things we learned was along the lines of not using all the glue in the bottle, so we wouldn’t make a mess. </p>
<p>My next elementary school, I also refused to read. They thought I couldn’t. My mother insisted I was a great reader. They finally sent me to the reading specialist, and had me read to her. It was second grade, and I believe I hit Mary Shelley’s Frankenstein before I was unable to read any further. They promptly put me in the honor’s english classes available. However, in my regular classroom, I was a bit defiant- I usually kept a book in my lap and read that instead, or I would get bored with my “busywork”. This happened with the boys who were excellent at reading or math as well, and that school is currently one of the top elementaries in our state. </p>
<p>Even today, in HS, when honors/AP kids get bored, we are often unlikely to put forth the effort needed to do the “busywork” unless we force ourselves. Often, English classes seem like busywork if they are not specifically challenging- my language class was fun, and I had a good teacher, something I actually enjoyed more in hindsight. My literature teacher however, is often gone due to her needing to be at board meetings and the like. We get a great deal more busywork in that class.</p>
<p>Our loss, but I have an A in that class anyways. Gotta do the work to get the grade.</p>
<p>Although I’ve had plenty of male teachers. Let me see, over 4 years… at least 9 teachers have been male. This year it’s been almost all of my teachers. I only have one female teacher out of 5 classes. None of my teachers are black/hispanic or asian. </p>
<p>
</p>
<p>That sounds like an attention problem, frankly. I’ve had similar stuff happen in my brain, but I just pushed through and finished. </p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Thank you. My college used to be an all girls school, but is now co-ed. However, I hope to be in the dorms that house the women’s center, because it was nice, and I liked it. </p>
<p>Most of this came from an unplesant discussion with my father about why as a woman, I shouldn’t get tenure if I became a professor.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>We need to stop giving them excuses about how boys are just “poorer linguistically” or that they’re all more “physical”, etc. We need to tell them they are smart. It goes back to the fact that girl babies are talked to more, while people make “vroom vrooom” noises at baby boys. There’s no reason why you can’t talk to a little boy, instead of making noises at him. Yes, he may be a kinesthetic learner anyways, but there’s no harm in raising a boy without thinking “of course he’s yelling and screaming and not doing homework! That’s what little boys do.” (as heard by most of my family about my brother, who, when pushed to do his work, gets good grades in reading as well as math.)</p>
<p>I’ve had male teachers in humanities subjects plenty of times, and it has never impacted me in any way. However, looking back at my grades for the last six years, when I had a male math teacher I did quite poorly. With female teachers I earned B’s and A’s. Jr. High I had female math teachers, and I earned A’s through a lot of work (it’s my worst subject) and in freshman year of HS I had a female teacher. I had a B, until she was fired, and I was put in a male teacher’s classroom. I then had a C. Sophmore year, I wanted to take honor’s geometry, but it was taught my a male teacher who made it very clear his purpose was to get most of us to drop or have a C in the class. I switched out with a C, and got put into a regulars class where I got a B. (Female teacher) I started to fail my Algebra II class (also a male teacher), so I took it online and taught myself, with the help of my grandmother, who teaches community college math. I passed. This year, I had a D in pre-calc, despite going in weekly to get tutoring (also a male teacher.) I do not enjoy doing poorly. I dropped the second semester of the class, and switched into the online course. I went from “almost failing” to a solid B. </p>
<p>On the flipside, I have never seen boys necessarily do better with male English teachers than they do female. (I took a regulars class last semester because it interested me.) So I am hesitant to say there is any causation in my teachers being male or female, and my grades. Math is a subject I am just not great at. However, my female math teachers were not “easier” in terms of grading. I don’t know if that affects boys at all, or whether this is a random happenstance (I caution to say it probably is.)</p>
<p>
Your last sentence says it all. Boredom is not an excuse for failure.</p>
<p>That doesn’t mean we should tolerate boring busywork in schools. I would personally like to see a shift to a test-based curriculum. But trying to excuse failure because of boring assignments is unacceptable.</p>