BeeDAre, I did understand what your were saying. I agree with you that your SD might have had better luck had she stayed away from pot and running up credit cards. But it IS possible to make a living at her passion-it’s just that the options are limited. My SIL has worked FT in costume/set design for many years-but she is in Vancouver, BC, the Hollywood of the north. Her husband, my H’s brother, also does quite well as an actor. It all started with summer theater up there.
To the point of this thread, as many have already said, what any of our kids do right after HS or college is often not a predictor at all of how/what/where they will end up careerwise. The days of working for the same company until you die or retire are long, long gone. My son’s first job after the Navy was at a bottling company. He tests buildings for weather resistance now and on the side works with an inventor. I had no illusions that he’s be boxing up bottles for the rest of his life. My H’s first job was in a call center. He’s a director of a department now in an important branch of local government. My sister actually WAS a daycare worker right after college. She’s in pharmacy now…and it’s probably a similar story for many people on this list. Disabilities skew everything, and I’m not sure some people get that.
Thank you lookingforward. Your comment is the the best I have read on this thread. I may not have been as articulate as I could have been and may have used business terms that turned some people off. But I’m a business prof. And my H is a former business school dean. We think this way.
But the point is, lookingforward, you got it! Thanks for not attacking.
I admire some of you for not expecting anything from your kids after paying for their college education. My H and I are neither that rich nor that generous. We tell our boys if they want to go find themselves, do so on their own dime. We will help them pay for college, but they need to get a practical degree out of it, and we expect them to go get a job and fully support themselves after.
The truth is they can go find themselves while holding down a full time job and paying rent. They don’t need to be paying $25-60k a year for 4 years to go find themselves. And if a liberal arts degree is all they want, they might as well go read up on all they want to know on the Internet or check out books from the library, why get yourself $120k in debt just to get a degree in Serbian poetry or basket weaving? What a ridiculous waste of money.
55% of college grads since 2008 are either unemployed or underemployed, while student loans are totaling in the trillions. My family doesn’t need to contribute to those statistics. If my kids just want to study philosophy, I’d tell them to go get a job and support themselves first, then go get that degree at night and pay for it themselves. Sorry folks. H and I are just too practical.
To the OP, perhaps you can encourage your son to get a job at a research lab that researches the type of mental illness that plagues him, finally putting his smarts to good use.
To the BeeDAre, perhaps you should encourage your SD to pursue her passion by opening a pot shop in CO. That might just be her calling. My uncle was an alcoholic, he ended up owning a liquor store then expanding it into a very successful distributor business. He passed away recently at 88, surrounded by his chidren, grandchildren and great grandchildren! Turn that deficit into an advantage, you never know, it might just work:).
So JoanneB, your thinking is that ALL liberal arts degrees are a “waste of money” WOW. Some liberal arts majors ARE practical, and DO lead to real jobs, you know. I know nothing I say will sway you, but funny you should mention philosophy. Two of my cousins have advanced philosophy degrees (which they DID help pay for) from an elite college. One is a full professor at a midwest university that seems to meet the CC higher tier rankings, the other is at Oxford. Perhaps you’ve heard of it?
Liberal arts degrees are not about “finding yourself”, they’re often about getting a very well-rounded education that can set a person up for any number of jobs. And as I’ve often said, what a sad, gray world this would be if there were no artists, poets, crafters and dreamers. Many of them have jobs that support them, and many of them went to college first.
Financial ROI is intruding more and more into college decisions, due to continually rising cost of college. Also, students from non-wealthy families may not have the family safety net that can assist them in an extended job search after graduation, so they may feel that they have to choose something that will be easier to get a job at graduation with (although their assumptions about which college or major helps in getting a job quickly may not necessarily be correct).
It is a different world from a generation ago, when a high school graduate could be self-supporting with money left over to pay trivial state university tuition, and attaining a bachelor’s degree in anything was more of a distinction in the job market than it is now. Back then, the financial ROI was much more likely to be comfortably positive, so a greater percentage of students could make college choices without worrying much about the financial ROI aspects of their choices.
Most parents want and expect (absent a disability) their kids to be self-supporting within a short time after graduation. A liberal arts degree may not yield as high a starting salary as a STEM degree, but I don’t think it condemns a student to be financially dependent on their parents. Nor do I think parents who support their child’s decision to obtain a liberal arts degree believe they’re paying for their child to “find themselves.” I know I’m not. I’m paying for my D to get a well rounded education and to develop critical thinking, problem solving, and communication skills.
If a child obtains a degree and is self-supporting does it really matter whether they make x versus y dollars? When the job doesn’t require a degree, or isn’t related to the degree, some parents feel the money was wasted. But in the current economy (especially the past few years), a lot of jobs that don’t require a degree go to the kids with a degree. And those kids are more likely to advance or find other opportunities down the road. Not to mention, the value of education in of itself.
I agree with those who suggested OP’s S try to find a research position. The step up from being a teller is usually an entry level banker. Retail banking often carries a lot of sales pressure and IMHO would not well suited for someone with mental illness.
The issues being discussed on this thread are just as applicable to students with “practical” majors as those in the liberal arts.
The OP could be just as disappointed in his/her son’s ROI even if the son had majored in engineering or business.
Definitely, yes. At the company where I work, our group’s admin is a former retail banker. She couldn’t handle the intense pressure to sell people services they don’t want or need, so she left the bank for a different type of job.
@JoanneB The OP’s son has a STEM degree, after majoring in math and physics. STEM alone doesn’t guarantee full employment when there are extenuating circumstances such as illness. Chances are if the child had been healthy, he may have gone for a different career path, but more importantly been more independent.
I don’t have answers but I don’t think the issue is liberal arts versus something else. (liberal arts IS the education that provides “a well rounded education and to develop critical thinking, problem solving, and communication skills.”), or even the college expense. After clarifying posts, the issue seems to be mental health and its effect on a young adult establishing an independent life.
If the son doesn’t want banking, then yeah, he won’t move up from the teller position. He needs to find his niche. If he doesn’t have the mental health issues under control, that may be preventing him from moving forward and finding it.
I think it’s very clear tht those of us not thinking in terms of ROI are not expecting their kids to not be self-sufficient. Mine do not make very much money, despite their high-sticker-price educations. But they are self-supporting.
So what else am I supposed to be expecting from them?
I am an accountant married to an engineer. Both H and I have jobs that pay well. We also have 2 kids who had no interest in STEM or business majors.
D graduated from an expensive private (we are full pay) 2 years ago. She has a job in her major that pays ok (not great). She loves her job. She is able to live in a major city with a few sacrifices and a few treats by managing her money well. She is not getting rich, but is saving in her 401k and more important, she is living a happy and balanced life. Worth it? YES.
S is a college freshman, another expensive school and another liberal arts major in our family. He is excited about what he is learning and the possibilities that are open to him. Is it worth it? YES.
I think what almost every parent wants is for their child to be a happy and self-supporting adult. This is the main reason that we are helping our children obtain their college degree. My husband nor I do not have one and it has stopped our work progress, especially my husband who cannot get another raise as he is at the “top” of his pay grade. I love each of them, but hope I will not have to continue to give them money throughout their lives like I have seen my sister and some friends do. Do I want each of my kids to be successful, of course. But only they can define what “success” is for them. I know that my husband and I cannot be the piggy bank for them though. We feel our gift to them when they are adults is that WE are self supporting in our retirement and do not have to rely on them.
My oldest is graduating with a practical degree (nursing). My youngest has a fairly practical major (math/comp sci). I have a liberal arts degree. I was actually kind of sad no one wanted to go that route. I had almost no undergrad debt. My graduate program was funded. I never had to look for jobs with salaries sufficient to cover massive student loan payments. And I’m pretty satisfied with what I do. I guess a “good ROI” is a definition that changes per family. For a lot of us, it means the kid is self sufficient, even if not wealthy or making back the bucks spent on college. For others, I guess it means the degree pays back what was spent on it and then some.
Sometimes, I think a “secret” wish of some parents is that they hope their offsprings could have a less stressful job than themselves. Whether these parents could “make” it happen is totally another question. The outcome could be just the opposite of what the parents prefer their offsprings to have, if the parents try too hard.
BTW, I have met many parents who confirmly believe their children could go to college as a prodigy and excel in a tough major at the age of 13! For most cases like this, I would feel sorry about these children. There are unlikely so many prodigies in this world.
I don’t even expect that much. A year ago, both of my kids (then 27 and 24) were self-supporting, but now one of them has gone back to school for a master’s degree and is incurring debt rather than earning a living. I don’t think this is anything to criticize. For some career paths, going back to school is an appropriate choice.
I also wouldn’t criticize either of my kids if they had children and either they or their partners decided to be a stay-at-home parent (and therefore not self-supporting).
What I see is that both of my kids are functioning as adults. They have careers that they like. They have friends. They do interesting things. They are meeting various challenges that come along. And one of them has a long-term relationship going with a very nice person.
I’m pleased for both of them. I don’t “expect” anything, and they aren’t required to please me. But I hope they are pleasing themselves (or taking steps to change things if there are aspects of their lives that they’re not happy with).
We have a friend with a B.A. AND M.A. in Economics and he constantly rails against “liberal arts” degrees, and says our D should major in Econ, too. ??!! Dude, Economics and Math are in Liberal Arts and Sciences!
When I’ve mentioned to others about looking to smaller “liberal arts” schools for D, a friend said, “Maybe she should attend a school where Chemistry, Biology, and Physics are also offered, you never know if she might change her mind about science.” !!!
I guess we should make a point to say, “liberal arts AND sciences”?