In our family (my husband, myself, and our two offspring), there is one person each who majored in math, biology, computer science, and economics.
In other words, that’s three liberal arts majors out of four.
But none of the three is what people think of as liberal arts.
My kids both went full-pay to highly selective but not top private schools as H and I supported their inclinations and desires. D ended up as an econ major, not what she had originally expected (was liberal artsy), but she seemed to have a talent for it, per a frosh year prof – it seemed to blend her social studies interest with her analytical ability. She worked at a consulting firm for her first job and is now with the federal government, frustrated with the bureaucracy but happy with the family-friendly work environment. (She took a significant cut in pay to make the switch, and is now married and pregnant, hoping to go back part-time post maternity leave.)
S was a mechanical engineering major at a small liberal arts college. He really wanted the liberal arts with the engineering, and a more nurturing experience. H and I pulled him out for sophomore spring semester though when his grades dropped below what we had all agreed would be acceptable. (He was passing, and not in academic “trouble” with the school, but did not have the grades to justify what H and I were investing.) He returned the following semester, did summer school, and managed to graduate on time. He is now working at a small local engineering consulting firm, but it took him several months to get that first job – transcript not impressive, not all STEM majors have multiple job offers to choose from. But seems to be doing OK in the work world.
Both kids took the Stafford loans to have skin in the game themselves. We were fortunate not to have to borrow other than that. Their loans are both almost paid off way early (by themselves).
No regrets re either, although pulling S temporarily out of the school he loved was VERY hard on all of us.
What I want is not just self-supporting, but able to build for their futures. I don’t want them ending up always on the edge and unable to work toward some other goals, like living in a nice place, whether they own it or not. Or unable to take a chance and switch jobs. Both of mine were humanities and are working, at good jobs. (D2 is in a long term temp-to-hire and barring some business issue, she will get the perm position, at a good pay rate.) But she doesn’t manage her money well. I’m hoping this is a temporary burst of post college “do it my way.” For now, I’ve said all I can to her.
Both of our kids are better off than my Dh and I were at their age. My 26 year old has an interesting and well-paying job he enjoys, is recently married and is considering buying a house. My 30 year old has her own business, a decent savings account and while her income is modest and she wishes it were higher, she’s working toward that, is able to save a bit, and is building toward the future. Both have been self-supporting since undergrad graduation, they seem pretty happy, and both have their health. I don’t know how much of their current situations can be attributed to college choices, but I think their colleges were worth it for a lot of reasons. They both received wonderful educations.
As I was reading the most recent replies on this thread, an update came in on my Facebook feed from a family I know. It struck me that this is the happiest family I know anywhere, yet by the measure of many on CC they are complete failures. The husband never went to college and is self-employed in a profession that runs hot and cold. There were some very learn years, especially at the beginning. The wife is physically disabled and unable to work since shortly after college-she attended an expensive school at full pay, yet has never used her degree-I wonder if her parents feel they lost out on their ROI.
The children-one attended college at no cost thanks to need and high grades and works in a lower-income humanities job. The other never went to college and works in retail, though is self-supporting. They drive used, but 100% paid-for cars which they’ve learned to fix themselves. Weekends, the parents and kids do typical “blue collar” activities like bowling league, bonfires and beer, “mudding” in their trucks.
But…they’re HAPPY. They enjoy the things they do and each other. Parents have been married more than 30 years. Kids have NEVER been in trouble, not for anything, ever. The update was about surgery for the husband, who had dozens of well-wishers, more friends than I can count for myself and my H combined. His clients have all insisted they will wait on his recovery (fully expected) to have their jobs done rather than hire anyone else. His friends also took up a collection (unasked, they knew this was coming and had money set aside) to help them get through the upcoming lean weeks and raised thousands in just days.
Honestly, if anyone has friends like those, a long, happy marriage like this, has two happy, self-supporting kids who enjoy being around them, has activities that they all enjoy and live debt-free, who is ANYONE to say they’re “less than” those educated with expensive degrees and high-paying job. There are simply more paths to happiness than is often seen around here.
If we’re talking about – what would I want after having paid for/attended a top dollar school – (absent any extenuating circumstances like health issues) – I agree with @lookforward. It isn’t just about being self supporting, it’s about building up to a place where there are options. Even a waiter can be self supporting (not always and not necessarily in the manner they grew up but it’s possible), but it’s about building up to a place where if another job opportunity comes along that pays 20k less but provides better work, they can take it or if they want to buy a home, they can. That being said, the reality is it takes time to build up your career (and bank account) enough to have those kinds of options. I had many peers who graduated Penn and went immediately to the large ibanks - despite not being super excited about it - because they needed to pay down debt and because they recognized that having a few yrs of i-banking experience on a resume would give them “credibility” for lots of other jobs. While they may not have been able to jump over to a cool start up at age 28, many/most of them are able to do so now a few yrs later.
The thing is, aj, not everyone WANTS to buy a home, or live “well”. Not everyone WANTS the latest model car, or live in a world where ibanking is even an option. See the above. And, I do know someone who was able to jump to a cool start up and is doing very, very well, despite not going into ibanking or going to a top dollar school, AND she did it well before 28. Owns her own home too. How? Saving like her life depended on it and working hard. But-as I said, there are many paths.
@sseamom - At the risk of sounding overly sentimental, your post brought tears to my eyes.
overtheedge-I’ve been stunned by the number of people offering rides, to cook meals, to bring them to appointment, cash, whatever they need. I thought I knew them well, but the outpouring of support is mind-blowing. The kids’ friends too are offering help in anyway needed. We can all only hope to have that kind of support and friendship as we go through life. I’m very happy for them.
Sseamom - the family you mentioned sounds wonderful. There are many paths to a fulfilling life.
Thirty + years ago, I set off for college intending to major in art. I am fifth generation college or more on both sides. It was rare for someone not to go to college in my family. My parents were very middle class in the true sense of the word-neither rich or poor-we had enough but had to be careful with money. When I left for college, my Duke graduate mother said the following " College will change how you think about the world. You will understand others better, solve problems better and make many interesting friends". Other than working hard and growing intellectually and as a person, that is all she or I expected out of college. Neither of us was disappointed. My mother stayed at home and did not work while I was growing up. She was incredibly bright, funny and interesting. She made my clothes, cooked terrible dinners and got into word battles with my Dad over dinner (she had the better vocabulary). My parents’ education enriched my life intellectually and emotionally.
Both of my children attended excellent liberal arts colleges that, with scholarships, made them as accessible as a state university. My husband and I covered their educations. My son is in grad school in music with a small assistantship; my daughter is in neuroscience with a big assistantship. Is one more successful than the other? In my opinion-no. I sent both to college with my mother’s expectation of college. My kids are wonderful to converse with. They write well, make good financial decisions and have all kinds of interesting knowledge factoids that they share with us. Both have interesting partners that they are dating and fascinating friends that they bring to holiday dinners. Both live in tiny run down studio apartments and drive old cars we passed on to them. I do not hear complaints.
Freud (I know some are shuddering and thinking sex) said “Love and work are the cornerstones of our humanness.” He also suggested that satisfaction in these areas contributed to our life satisfaction. Maybe the media has placed too much emphasis on material accomplishment and not enough on finding real satisfaction? With big material success as overarching American media theme, it is easy to feel badly about family members that can and do support themselves but are not economically far up the ladder. We should expect to be able to care for our families and live in a safe environment as the result of college. But should we expect big material gain? I know my thoughts are off for those who went into debt for college and have the challenge of paying down loans.Massive debt at the beginning of adult life can make meeting basic needs challenging. For those not yet in college and without economic resources, community college can be an excellent option. I teach at one. My students grow intellectually and change their world views just as dramatically as my children did.
So for me, my kid’s education was worth it.
Just realized that the OP was talking about a son with psychological difficulties. My comments are not meant to address families with those concerns. I got lucky; my children’s issues were not huge so it is easy for me to sing about the wonders of college.
Any time we have a child whose promise has been derailed by big psychological challenges, it is sad, painful and an ongoing problem. I hope her son has the mental health support needed to help ensure his stability.
sseamom - “Two of my cousins have advanced philosophy degrees (which they DID help pay for) from an elite college. One is a full professor at a midwest university that seems to meet the CC higher tier rankings, the other is at Oxford. Perhaps you’ve heard of it?”
I think a liberal arts degree today is a degree for the idle rich. If you want a job with a degree in Philosophy, then you’d better go to a top tier school. A philosophy major from Stanford may get a job at Google, but a Philosophy major from Central Oregon U. will probably end up pouring lattes or folding t-shirts. And I’m not surprised that both people you know with Philosophy degrees end up in teaching. That’s the only kind of job many LibArt majors can get, so they can go help produce more LibArt majors. The only problem is there are only so many teaching jobs, and there’s a glut of LibArt majors with no real skills.
I think it’s wonderful to learn for learning’s sake. I’m an avid reader and continue to read voraciously for the last 20+ years since college, on any and all subject that interest me. The internet and the public library are two amazing resources. Why would anyone need to go to college and plunk down $70k a year for 4 years to learn something that can be learned through free online classes or the public library? Want to discuss it with like minded? There’s an internet forum for every topic. Lots of MOOCs also offer discussion forums.
I think the internet is going to majorly change how we get our degrees in the next 5 to 10 years. It’s insane the way our high school students kill themselves with AP/IB classes and ECs they could care less about just to look good for prestigious schools. What a huge waste of time. The internet is going to be a game changer that upsets this prestige racket. I can’t wait for that to happen.
I don’t think you’ve been around CC that long, because many, many parents have mentioned their liberal arts kids doing all kinds of different jobs that are not at all folding shirts or pouring lattes. There are MANY skills learned in liberal arts, including critical thinking, which can be an asset in all sorts of jobs. And as others have already mentioned, there ARE STEM majors that are actually taught at liberal arts schools.
I’ll be sure to tell my cousins that their jobs have no real purpose. Your elitism is pretty unpleasant.
Joanne- why stop at Liberal Arts? You don’t seriously think that a kid majoring in bio at U New Haven ( a private college despite its public sounding name) or Denison can’t learn what they are learning online? Maybe two semesters worth of lab skills- the rest is “fancy book larning”. And you can’t think that ANY college is worth the price to learn CS (the ultimate online skill).
So be consistent and declare all high priced colleges a waste of money. Philosophy is no more or less a waste than paying tuition to learn how to code (given the number of self-taught expert coders in the world).
Sign your kids up for U of Phoenix and be done.
The days are past when you learned one vocation only. Those philosophy majors may have limited options in philosophy, but when well educated and with motivation, they can find fulfilling work that draws on their skills and assets. And builds a career.
Don’t assume philosophy majors don’t get the “secret password.”
sseamom - I’m not the one who worships at the Ivy League altar, many of our employers are. I find that fact every bit as unpleasant as you do, which is why I pointed out in the same post that I can’t wait for online universities to take off and do away with the prestige racket.
blossom - when MOOCs begin to grant diplomas and these diplomas are accepted by employers as equivalence of a college diploma from a good school, you can bet I’ll be signing my kids up for them. U of Phoenix is too expensive for moi!
I teach online courses and seated classes. Although online classes are convenient and, for the self-motivated, provide a nice structure to learning, I do not find them a substitute for a real classroom with live human beings in it. In face-to-face classes, there is a real relationship. Students learn how to discuss concepts in an appropriate manner, build relationships and contacts that may or may help with future employment. Social skills are learned in college and we can truly understand out cultural differences and similarities when we share a room with other learners.
I always feel that the references I write for online students are hollow. I do not really know that person. I do not see them rush into class, linger with others during break, know their quirks or how they deal with being with others. Sometimes I don’t know if the student is real or if it is a parent or hired source taking the course rather than the named person. I know very little about their personal lives, their hopes, their vulnerabilities. Yes, I do skype and googletalk but these forms of communication do not carry the human content that often facilitates learning. It is very different than skyping a loved one such as a child who you know at a deep level. Nothing carries over from a previous relationship. Gaps cannot be filled in. Even here, the experience does not substitute for coffee with a group of friends traveling through similar experiences with their children. The conversation is interesting. I learn a lot. I enjoy what others say but it will never substitute for the conversations I have with my friends whom I can disagree with and then hug.
My son graduated in December and just landed his first job. Two decisions he made have really paid off; graduating with no debt and going to a school with a co-op program (basically six month long internships.) He is now working for one of the companies he did a co-op with and having no debt allowed him to accept the position.
He was on a full tuition scholarship but we paid room/board. We were grateful to be in a position to provide that assistance to him and, yes, I will always think it was worth it, no matter what happens with his career.
The for profit online schools have very mixed reputations, with reportedly good reason. Coursera, etc are an entirely different story.