<p>MTW wrote the following and I think it’s entirely fair to ask if gathering more information has influenced her thinking. Please note she did not limit her remarks to her son. If she had, I would not be asking:</p>
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<p>Fair enough.</p>
<p>I can’t believe folks are still debating the benfits of 200K vs. full ride at good state U.</p>
<p>I guess my curse still exists. (sigh)</p>
<p>Ok, check out many ot the pulitzer prize winnning authors and look up where they went for undergrad work. Check out the Nobel prize winning scientists and check out where they attended undergraduate school. Check out many of the members of the National Academy of Science and find out where they did their undergraduate. Yes, you will see a number of ivy and named school grads along site with a large number of state u and other lessor tier schools. </p>
<p>In business, check out how many CEO and top managers went to an ivy or MIT or Caltech or similar institution for undergrad: I would bet only a few.</p>
<p>Lastly check out the faculty at the most prestigious univeristies where they attended as undergrad. Yes, ivy schools like to hire ivy grads,but check out the undergrad that they attended. This is particularly true for the arts. RISD is known as the “harvard of art schools,” at least that is what they bill themselves at. However, if you check out art school faculty, very, very few are from RISD!</p>
<p>I have two cousins who are full professors at ivy schools Niether of them attended an ivy undergraduate, unless you count Brandeis as an ivy school. One went to a state school as an undergrad. </p>
<p>Also, don’t ignore the most famous evolutioinary biologist in the latter part fot he 20th century: Stephen J Gould who want to antioch.</p>
<p>Moreover, while you are at it, do a search for folks who attended a top notch private schools and now regret the amount of debt of amount that they spent. None of this discussion takes these poor folks into account.</p>
<p>All I can say is that if you do your research, you will certainly see a number of folks who attended ivys. However, you will see a LOT more folks who attended state u or a lessor tier private school.</p>
<p>Sorry for the typos in post 63. I definitely need new glasses. I wish CC would allow edits past the 20 min time gun.</p>
<p>OH no he didddnt! Disclaimer…Taxguy hates Rhode Island School of Design . So what if other arts school teachers are not from RISD. Don’t know what that proves. It might mean the RISD graduates are out working as artists and did not pick teaching as a profession. Don’t think that proves the education is not worth the cost of admission. There are a large number of RISD grads that work in their chosen profession after graduation. It’s one of the numbers they track. RISD doesn’t bill themselves as the HARVARD of art schools. Never saw it on any of literature sent to me. Other people say this (like you). Disclaimer… my daughter, goes to RISD and says she has several art teachers who graduated from RISD.<br>
Oh and Taxguy, the most talked about artist of the year…Shepards Fairy! He did the famous graphic poster of Obama (called the hope poster). RISD graduate. In Rolling Stone Magazine this week. Poster went into the Smithsonian museum this year. I’m just saying.</p>
<p>I don’t understand this. We all make this decision with our kids about where they are going to school. Many factors go in to that decision: where they get in, money, location, etc. To reduce it to just the money is not the whole question or the whole answer. We all make the best decision we can with the facts we have for our family. Why does my decision, for my child, some how come under attack because somebody else thinks the school is too expensive or perhaps their child did not get in to that school?</p>
<p>I personally do not understand why the emotion is running so wild over the question of full pay private elite college vs. full ride state U. If the money is a not-so-easy-but-doable kind of a consideration, it’s really up to each kid and each family. It’s a matter of fit. Digging out data points on world famous so-and-so who did or did not go the the uber expensive college of good state U is just that: anecdotal data point. It may or may not apply to a particular kid in question. Trying to tell those who have different belief that their decision is not optimal is not really helping. Sharing each other’s reasons and explanations for their choice DOES help all of us since it allows us to consider different options and perhaps factors we did not consider before.</p>
<p>Yes, for S1, I am gladly paying a full tuition to an expensive private college even though he had a full ride option at a good state U. It’s the right thing to do given who he is and what he wants to do. For S2, a full ride state U would be just as good, and perhaps a better, option. This is by no means an indication that I value S1’s education more than S2’s. It also does not mean that I expect that there will be a greater “return on investment” from S1’s education vs. S2’s. NOT AT ALL. There is no guessing who will be more successful in their chosen field either. It’s really a matter of a fit. I know my kids - their personalities, values, long term prospects, and aspirations. </p>
<p>As it stands now, S2 wants to join ROTC and win ROTC scholarship. He has a good chance to get the ROTC scholarship. Since the military pays the tuition & fees, it will be a moot point for him whether he goes to a public U vs. private U, if he is good enough to get accepted by both kinds. Even so, there is a VERY GOOD chance that he may select the big state U - so even if the money is not an issue, there is a good reason to go with the right “fit”. </p>
<p>By the way, my S1 is graduating from a uber selective and competitive public magnet HS. My S2 is attending a regular public suburban HS. Both of them are at a RIGHT school for them. I don’t think my S1 would be as happy in the regular school. Likewise, for my S2, the dorky and nerdy super magnet school would not be a right fit. I am happy with where they are: both of them.</p>
<p>Let me be clear, Artmommy77: I do NOT hate RISD in any way. I never , ever said that I hate RISD.In fact, I like RISD alot. I am just not sure that they are any better in all artistic disciplines than MICA, Pratt et. al. My point is that if you can assume that colleges try to get top professionals in a field to be faculty, top ivy schools and even schools like RISD aren’t overrepresented in university positions.It would seem that folks can get a top notch education attending less expensive schools. That is the only point I was making.</p>
<p>I never got the impression that taxguy was anti RISD</p>
<p>interesting post count, artmommy…</p>
<p>Well, for me, I’m new here. I’m actually very curious about how and why people are making the choices they are making, for reasons of my own, since my kids are soooo different, because they value very different thngs, etc…need different things, etc…But, I’ve also been really pretty horrified to find out that there are kids out there who genuinely believe they will get an inferior education at their state university when they really CAN’T afford the other schools. I think they are disappointed. I also believe that 200K is a different amount of money depending on the circumstances, that it is not a static amount–for each family, or for each circumstance.</p>
<p>I have been surprised by the level of emotion, too. But, for me, I really am curious as to how and why people make the decisions they make. Also, I think it is really important for the kids to “get” that even under less than ideal circumstances, they can make “it” happen for themselves, with the current educational system and without an absolutely crippling amount of debt.</p>
<p>Also, don’t misinterpret my use of the word “investment.” Investing is money or time or resources that are essentially saved and will create something, spending is flat, and wasting is wasting…imho.</p>
<p>It is something kids need to learn from their parents, but not every dollar or hour spent is an investment and sometimes it’s just a waste. Depends. Spending time and money IS more or less expensive depending on the circumstances. And, I’m curious as to how and why parents are valuing things and making the choices they are making. It’s interesting.</p>
<p>pugmadkate and poetgrl,
The OOS schools offering free rides to DS#1 cannot be mentioned in the same breath as Berkeley, Michigan and UVA. ;)</p>
<p>What I take from the conversation with DS#1 re: the undergrad institutions of his cohorts is that the three who came straight from undergrad went to elite undergrad institutions. The person who came from William Paterson worked for MANY years before being accepted into the graduate program. I would think that student and many others had to “prove” themselves in the outside world, whereas DS#1 did not.</p>
<p>I’m not for one moment suggesting how other people should spend their hard-earned resources. DH and I are somewhat older parents, married over 30 years and have been saving $$ for over 30 years and living below our means. A main focus has been on our kids education.</p>
<p>we are a bit like momof3sons family. We made a life style choice decision during last few years, hence our income is much lower this year, and perhaps for some years to come. However, we had a meaningful stretch of very good earning years, and it’s due to the saving from that period that we can entertain the thought of very expensive private education for the kids. </p>
<p>Even when we were making top dollars, we lived WAY BELOW our means: never bought expensive cars, fancy clothes, etc. Lived in the same house for last 15 years. The only exception was frequent trips abroad, but then again, we considered that to be an essential part of education. Education has always been our top priority, and that’s the reason we saved. If we retire on a much more limited income than we would if not for the ultra expensive education for the kids, that’s OK: we do not have expensive tastes, and we are happy living a simple life. </p>
<p>Even so, we are not simply squandering $$$ for the sake of saying “we sent our kids to expensive private elite (undergrad) colleges”. For S1, it IS the right choice. For S2, the money is better invested into the professional school (law) he wants to pursue later in life, so be it. </p>
<p>I think every family will make a right decision based on the needs of the kids and family. Saying that elite private undergraduate education is a poor investment/waste of money or that elite private education almost always trumps the state U education is very simplistic. </p>
<p>Poetgrl: Since you said you are curious about why some families make certain decision, if you check the early post I made on this thread, you will find the reasons for my decision.</p>
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<p>Agree 100%. The problem on this forum is that many try to impose their own values on others without knowing their circumstances, perhaps to seek validation or justification of their own choices. I do think the most helpful posts are “this is what we’ve done and why, YMMV”.</p>
<p>I think all posts are helpful. We get to learn different positions and opinions, which we can then use as inputs in our own decision making process.</p>
<p>SAX…the post count is bogus. A funky computer glich one late night. I agree with all the post that state this is a personel choice. I have two children: one child that went to the (cheap) State University and got a great education and a wonderful experience, one that is at a great private school. And yea it cost more money.</p>
<p>The bottom line is that each of us has to live with the choices we make and all the consequences. We can all only make the best choices we have with the resources available to us. There are so many things to consider that the pros & cons list can get quite involved, especially if you consider the current economy, retirement assets, medical needs, etc.</p>
<p>Students can get good educations at a variety of places–it really does depend on each individual and what they make of the setting they end up in. Ultimately, there are many right choices–hope everyone finds ones that work for them and their families.</p>
<p>Anybody live in Canada? The decision is even harder here. In Quebec, marginal tax rates are sky high and university education is heavily subsidized. McGill, one of the more prestigious research universities in North America, costs 1700/yr for undergrad. Even with textbooks and all other expenses, the total cost for all four years is under 10k. That said, I was not super impressed with my McGill education. Classes are huge and impersonal. On the other hand, I’m only 23, so it may be a bit early to judge. </p>
<p>I’m just trying to help my parents figure out where to send my younger sister. From a purely financial standpoint, McGill still seems to win out against most other options. To justify 200k vs. 10k (since there would be no aid), my sister would have to be accepted to HYPSM and show a real interest in finance or engineering. Even for families w/200k annual incomes, dropping 200k for “fit” is insane. Normal folk have to learn to “fit” into whatever circumstance life throws at them.</p>
<p>I actually find this conversation comforting because I’ve been beating myself up over not being able to afford RISD, where my daughter was accepted, and also wondering if my dire financial circumstances harmed my D’s chances at other schools. I’ve been doing all sorts of unhealthy things like being envious of those with more money, and feeling really angry at myself for having made many stupid life decisions. For me, this post is a good reminder that your undergrad experience is really personal and that, in true American fashion, in most undergrad schools, you can go anywhere–if you work hard and get the good recommendations. It’s made me remember that my ex earned a Churchill scholarship (similar to Rhodes) from Michigan State after a full ride to MSU; after Cambridge Univ., he went to MIT. As someone else says, if you go to grad school, no one cares at all about your undergrad experience. It’s just so easy nowadays, it seems, to get caught up in the status thing; I’ve been guilty of that too: 'I’m a better parent because my kid is going to an Ivy or a top school." </p>
<p>That said, some schools are simply better than others. I think no one is disputing that. RISD, to use an example, is a top art school. Going there will up your chances of being a working artist. But notice the phrase, ‘up your chances.’ No guarantee. (And by the way, many successful grads are MFAs rather than BFAs.) It really depends on your child. There are other avenues. For me , there is really no choice, in that I do not have $200K to spend, I have no savings or net worth or anything. For others who do, this sort of frees me up to let go of my immature and unhealthy envy. You are blessed with the ability to choose–wedding versus college, car versus LAC, etc. That is wonderful. And for all of us, it’s ultimately about what works best for our families and our children given the cards we are dealt.</p>
<p>We’re facing the same tough choice. DS2 is at Bowdoin tomorrow for the open house. Could go there, Johns Hopkins, Tufts, or Vassar and pay bust-out retail or go to state honors college (UConn) for ~$3k/year tuition. We’ll see.</p>
<p>Regarding less expensive state school v. expensive private school:</p>
<p>Perhaps it is less important as to which choice the student/parents make, and more important with what that student DOES with the opportunities available at the school of choice.</p>
<p>I’ve known students who have essentially squandered four years at very expensive private schools, and I’ve known students who have done a tremendous job at the state university. I’ve also known students who have thrived at the former and bombed at the latter. It works both ways. </p>
<p>The key thing is for students to cast down their buckets where they are.</p>
<p>hoveringmom,
Art is one field where the reputation of the school makes little difference in ultimate career or grad school prospects. It’s important to find a school with strong departments in your daughter’s areas of interest, but there are many excellent art departments in all types of schools, including state universities. Check out the websites of top graduate art programs and you will be surprised about the variety of undergrad institutions that their current grad students attended.</p>