<p>Well, I’ve taken notes on the ideas everyone has had. Yes, CE is hard but math and science are what he is interested in. The fact that he failed Calc I, Chem I and Computer science is a weird one. He tested into Calc I by a large margin. He is capable of doing the work. He enjoyed his intro to EE and CE class. He doesn’t want to change majors but we are going to have a very long talk today. I called the advising dept today just to see if they are open and they aren’t. Maybe they will reopen next week. He has emailed his advisor but no response yet.</p>
<p>" I don’t know how to help him, IF I should help him or what the next steps should be. If he can re-enroll next semester he will retake all the F classes."</p>
<p>-If student does not understand what has caused .5 GPA, then he will continue the same way. In order to change, one need to know what needs to be changed which is not the case here. I do not see any point to continue at college, he needs to find a job and possibly go back to college when he figures out what he needs to do differently to be able to get reasonable GPA in college.</p>
<p>I think if you are going to give this college another go, a parent should accompany him to the school with a scheduled visit to the advisor. Your son needs to know how this happened. That, to me, is more a problem than failing the courses, as many others here have said. </p>
<p>My son took a very difficult modeling course taught by a tough professor who was difficult to approach and understand. He and we knew this was a problem all semester and we knew he was concerned and was trying to stay on track Had he flunked the course or done poorly, we would have understood the situation. But to be blindsided like the OP was, would have been a major problem. I think I would insist on the student taking a leave of absence and retake the courses at a local college. </p>
<p>This is a family decision, a parenting decision… But to throw him back into the same environment without fixing something is really just asking for a replay of the same situation. Clearly something is wrong, and it had better be targetted and fixed. </p>
<p>It is normal that even kids who were good high school student to have a gpa drop that first term or year, but 3 failures is beyond difference in performance that is understandable.</p>
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<p>Just a note…if he needs to retake calc 1 and chem 1 will he be able to do so in the spring term? At some schools this is a course sequence offered and the fall term is the “1” courses and the spring “2”. This is something to ask his advisor. I can’t imagine he can (or should) take the second course in the sequence without first passing the first course in the sequence. </p>
<p>Also does he receive financial aid? If so, you might want to check the college’s requirements for Satisfactory Academic Progress (SAP). In addition to the course issues, it is possible that financial aid is in jeopardy (including Stafford loans).</p>
<p>he knows what happen. however it may be difficult for him to focus on healthy behavior to get passing grades. time management, social distractions, school work etc may be hard for him to prioritize and focus on. i suggest helping him by taking one semester slower at a cc.</p>
<p>swimscatmom - our handbook does not give a limit - it does say you can retake a class or in special situations substitute one for another. Why do you think there is a limit and if so, do the handbooks specifically say what the limit is? Now I’m thinking that what they mean by a class means that you can retake one.</p>
<p>You know, I am still traumatized by my son’s freshman year in college. OP, allow yourself to mourn. It is such a shock to most of us when our kids do very poorly in college. I think it would be safe to say that none of us here on CC said to ourselves, “well, he’s gotten C and Ds in HS and skips class all the time so I’ll send him away to school and see what happens.” Our kids have done well in HS…some of them extraordinarily well. It’s such a shock when they crash and burn in college, for whatever reason.</p>
<p>I will say that my son’s MO is to stop going to a class when he feels he’s lost, etc. That seems to be so common, I really wish the schools would address it. I wish they would take attendance and then send out an alarm of some sort when a certain number of classes are missed. I know there are privacy laws, but lots of the rules can be waived. At least with the small LACs that sell the personal attention they give to students, it seems like they’d do something when a student just stops coming to class.</p>
<p>OK one more thought. This kid needs to have some confidence and success taking college courses…right now, he has VERY limited success. If he can build some confidence by taking courses at a CC, doing well, managing his time, etc…this could go a long way for his future.</p>
<p>Re: privacy…our kids’ schools DID take attendance and they DID send notes TO THE STUDENTS (not all profs did this but some did). College students are supposed to be managing this themselves…yes time management in college isn’t easy for some…not have the folks around them managing this for them. However, having said that…your STUDENT probably can sign the FERPA form giving you the ability to have access to any and all things related to their college. You are assuming, however, that your kiddo will listen to YOUR warnings when they aren’t listening to their own.</p>
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<p>I think that first semester freshmen should get a lot more oversight than other students.</p>
<p>My apologies to OP, as I continue to post on the thread with my S’s situation- which mirrors OP’s so closely- my S has a 1.4 earned : D, D, C, and A(in humanites) in same major as OPs’ S and at a top institution. Ds are essentially the same as Fs-- the outcome the same-- must retake required classes. Slight difference, OP’s S apparently in entry point math, chem and CS classes–my S has AP credits for those and is in the next level up of all of these-- but now repeating CS and Math classes.</p>
<p>Missypie’s S’s MO is what I think went wrong with both the OP and my S-- they stop attending classes when things got rough. This isn’t all that atypical for freshman - especially young men who don’t seek help. If it has been any open or undecided major- perhaps they might have read their way out of Ds and Fs-- getting Cs. But in Science, Engineering and Math-- not attending classes leads to Fs. With all due respect- these majors are signficantly more challenging - -that is why the average gpa in these majors is a full point lower than most and that is why you see the min gpa requirements for these scholarships often set at 2.5 – it’s tough to be STEM major. My S and OP’s S didn’t reach out to all the support that was available on their campuses - either the Prof, the TA or other academic support or counseling services. Regardless of all the efforts for students to become self sufficient- I strongly believe that there needs to be some sort of mentor or weekly coach check in would help students who are in on academic probation. Getting assistance with note taking, goal setting, time management priorities for the week and then knowing when they are falling behind where and how to seek help. If someone is working with these students on a weekly basis they will build the life long skills to manage this approach in subsequent semesters. If they return and attempt to do this on their own -which is as I have been stating to my S over and over the past few days, it’s not going to happen. They cannot make the change on their own- the same feelings of academic hopelessness will set in and they will resume the same behaviors. Their brains aren’t yet wired to make the necessary lifestyle changes - they are immature and they cannot help it.
I’m also convinced my S has real difficult time handling stress inducing events- and counseling would help him adopt behavioral skills to cope in these times. Whether it’s underlying mental health issues or immaturity is unknown-- but unless the college commits to helping him and he seeks the help, I don’t see success. I still do not feel comfortable paying a dime – that is akin to saying get a job at home or pay for yourself-- either option is a good wake up call.
Whether he accepts and understands that the bursar bill is his responsibility is unclear but at least at this point we are receiving a bit more information - still in sound bites: “I guess I didn’t sleep all semester” “I stopped attending classes” “I will tell you the courses I’m picking for spring when I’m ready” “I am applying for summer jobs” and “yes, I’m going back” “no I don’t need help- I know what I did and it won’t happen again”…retreats to room for several hours.</p>
<p>We’re not angry, not in the least, not even mad. We are just so disappointed that he may in fact blow what really is the opportunity of a lifetime.</p>
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<p>My son was at an only slightly selective LAC…those kind of schools really want and need the tuition money, so they are generous with second chances. If a student was on academic probation after first semester, he was required to check in at the Academic Success office least once a week the next semester for coaching, etc. My son was barely above the probation GPA, so he was not permitted to access these services. </p>
<p>If the school can require certain things of students on probation, it seems like they could require attendance and then require at any point in the semester, certain monitoring for the rest of the semester.</p>
<p>Of course, this might not be feasible for huge schools. But with LACs in the 1000-2000 student range, that recruit these kids like crazy, that really need the tuition money, it seems like it would be a mutually beneficial and cost effective practice to keep closer tabs on the first semester freshmen.</p>
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Keep in mind that many CS courses require a lot of work and it’s not like whipping out a paper at the last minute as can be done for some humanitites courses. Both of my kids were CS majors and I remember them having to write programs in their first quarter (and from then on actually) that might take 20-35 hours just to write the one program in the one week’s assignment and this is in addition to the HW in the other courses. In some cases they did all-nighters to get the programs done and worked through many weekends on the programs. The programs often had to be ‘turned in’ via computer by a particular deadline, ex: Thursday at midnight, or they’d end up with a ‘0’. If th eprogram doesn’t work perfectly, i.e. run and produce the correct output, they might end up with a ‘0’ regardless of how much time and effort was put into it. Writing the program typically isn’t a slam/dunk - they usually need to learn a lot about the language including teaching it to themselves, need to perform true critical thinking in figuring out what algorithms to use, need to be detail oriented and comment their code properly (usually enforced heavily in the first few courses), and the program needs to work - i.e. it’s objective - not subjective like a paper. In addition to a general interest in math/science/CS as your S says he has, he needs to realize that this is a major that requires a LOT of work and it’s difficult work. It’s more work than most majors and it’s work not everyone can do - not everyone has the aptitude for it whether they’re interested in it or not.</p>
<p>CS/CE is a major with a high attrition rate, typically 30-40% of students will switch out of it within the first year or so, and it’s because the student either finds it’s not what they thought it’d be (i.e. they like to play video games so they thought they’d like CS - there’s really no relationship between the two), they’re not willing to do the extensive work required, or they’re unable to do the difficulty of work required. There’s nothing wrong with switching out to another major and if he’s going to switch it’s better to do it sooner than later. It’s important that he comes to terms with his issues and decide if he’ll really improve (whether capable or not) or if he should make some changes such as switching majors or even colleges.</p>
<p>The above experiences were at UCLA and UCSD which have pretty rigorous CS programs but I don’t think it’s atypical.</p>
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This post will likely not be much help, but I wanted to spout off my usual rant about AP. OP, your son may just have been overwhelmed. It happened to me, although my GPA didn’t suffer until the middle of my Sophomore year when it all got to me, and I ended up dropping out for a while before I came back to finish.</p>
<p>I think AP is a wonderful way to introduce kids to more rigorous coursework. But in many cases it is not indicative of the ability to skip introductory college coursework in your major… Although AP courses differ, and some may be extremely rigorous, AP science and math exams in no way mirror the difficulty of a decent college course. How in the world could they? These are multiple choice tests that will give you a 5 for 60% in some cases. And they generally have a large number of simpler, broad based problems rather than the extremely difficult, focused problems you are likely to encounter in a decent introductory freshman Physics course, for example. </p>
<p>Now some kids are obviously extremely advanced and can handle junior and senior level work as freshman. I have no idea whether the OP’s son, or the other poster’s son are one of these kids. But the AP exam is no metric to determine this, in and of itself.</p>
<p>I passed four AP exams myself (4s and above) way back in the 70s. The only class I actually advanced myself in was Calculus, and only by two quarters. But I did take all the honors level courses in Science and Math and it was a rude awakening (and this was not an Ivy League level school – it was UCSD). I also got bummed out when the going got tough, and I do not know why kids feel the need to rush through the basics.</p>
<p>I’ll echo what ucsd<em>ucla</em>dad wrote. That first computer science course can be brutal. My son’s first course had about 90 labs, 3,000 pages of reading, papers, quizzes and homeworks. Those labs could take from 15 minutes to 20 hours to do. The course description said that no previous programming experience was required but I didn’t see how it was possible to do well without some previous experience.</p>
<p>In my son’s physics classes, about two-thirds of the students were gone after two semesters. The courseload can be brutal and you have to ask for help if you need it or employ study groups to get through the workload.</p>
<p>I think that your son needs to realize that these first-semester classes are the easy classes. The difficulty level accelerates with Calc 2, Calc 3 and the other sciences as you progress.</p>
<p>My S is a freshman at Northwestern U in their honors Integrated Science Program. He happily finished out his 1st quarter, so I’m just offering some of his observations from this STEM program.</p>
<p>ISP accepts about 30 students a year. It is said that the harder part of ISP is getting through the program, not being accepted into it. It is felt that those students accepted into the program have stats similar to students going to MIT and CalTech. In the case of my S, he did not want to attend MIT, CalTech or other schools where almost everyone was so focused in certain areas, as he wanted a different kind of undergrad experience. Thus far, ISP at NU is a great fit for what he wanted.</p>
<p>ISP requires two quarters of computer programming. He said he spent a solid 36 hours (6 of which were eating and walking) to complete the final project for his computer programming class. He said everything he did during that period, including his eating and walking, turned into an “If/then” statement in his mind. And he loved it and the logic of it. So, he might major in ISP (which is the equivalent of a 2/3 degree in physics, chemistry and bioology, with heavy math undertones) and have a second major (this is very typical in ISP) in math or math and comp sci.</p>
<p>So, the entering class is 30. In the beginning few weeks, the class in broken into two segments, and each segement of 15 students has two peer advisors (upper classmen in ISP) as well as a faculty advisor. In addition, each student has a faculty advisor.</p>
<p>ISP also has their own house on campus, not a residence, but a place they can congregate to study (which they do) that also houses a computer lab, classroom space and a lounge. Engineering students very much respect ISP students as having a rigorous program.</p>
<p>While it is true that ISP has some melt, the “melting” students are usually not failing the university. Rather, they might prefer to major in just one science, as the rigor can be daunting. ISP tracks its freshman rather closely. During freshmen orientation, they spend time with the incoming students, describing in detail what their academic lives will be like. They put on a non-credit seminar, where the ISP students learn what the expectations are for their research efforts while an ISPer (e.g. how to approach a professor, what opportunities exist, etc.)</p>
<p>Tutoring is available. Professors enjoy teaching ISP classes and working with these students (I discovered this when my H, a math professor, vetted the program with someone he knows.)</p>
<p>NU, being a private university, is up there in cost. Still, this level of thoughtfulness and attention that they give to their ISP students is something that warms this Mom’s heart.</p>
<p>NU clearly takes a more caring approach than other top STEM programs who seem to accept the fact that 25% attrition is fine. Hard work is indeed needed in these classes-- hours and hours of it. Take three such classes and you quickly are stressed, underfed, and sleep deprived. </p>
<p>Our older sibling is in engineering and considered NU - she ended up at Columbia and also turned down straight engineering programs.
BTW S wasn’t interested in Caltech or MIT for similar reasons. </p>
<p>TIme to go upstairs and resurrect the young man from the computer screen - perhaps I can motivate him to go to the mall or a movie and get out of the house! (and get myself off CC - not exactly my ideal vacation week either)</p>
<p>I find it really hard to believe that someone could earn a .5 GPA and not know why they did so poorly. It sounds like he wasn’t really studying at all and probably not going to class.</p>
<p>yes. In this case, I suspect “I don’t know” probably means “I’d rather not say”.
As I said pages ago, that would not be good enough for me.</p>
<p>But NU is also a calibre of school that can ensure those they admit can cut the program they design. That is very different than many other - especially public- programs that are not particularly difficult to get into, so some can make it through it and some can not. The OP’s son is at U of Missouri at XX? It has much to do with the selection process as anything else.</p>
<p>Also remember some students take the engineering sequence when they have NOT yet declared engineering as their major.</p>