A deferred senior needs sane advice (both ivy-tinted/not tinted welcome)

Parents Forum
1

<p>Hi,</p>

<p>I want to stop being so down and ask some real questions, but the Yale board is still filled with people repeating the same advice (a lot of which I find iffy) and sad people (I need to get away from being sad!).</p>

<p>My school regularly sends people to Yale. For as long as I can remember, at least three or four have gotten in EA to Yale (not so much any other colleges, strangely). This year 5 applied, and none got in (2 rejections, 3 deferrals). I was among the deferred.</p>

<p>My first problem is, I feel indignant in addition to feeling upset. I am ranked first, with the highest SATs, good recommendations, good everything, unique ECs with leadership. Our class is small, and rank 15, with some SAT scores in the 500s, also got deferred. I know I shouldn't feel this way. I know I'm awful for feeling this way. But I have done everything better, yet both of us will got the same result. I'm fairly close to him actually, and he is unhooked (white, upper middle class, non athlete, history intended major). Is there any way to specifically make myself different in the RD round? I'm worried that now that I am in the same "pile" as him, Yale probably won't even look at my app again. And Yale is still, despite my bitterness, my first choice. If I don't win any new awards to update them with, how can I contact them to reaffirm this?</p>

<p>My second problem is, my parents have gone bonkers because I wasn't accepted (I wasn't planning on applying anywhere else) and now I'm applying to BASICALLY ALL THE IVY LEAGUES, LITTLE IVIES, ONE MATCH, and ONE SAFETY. (Asian alert, albeit one who is not so good at math)</p>

<p>If any of you have time, could you please read this stat profile and help me with some of my questions?</p>

<hr>

<p>SAT I (by section): 800V, 700M, 710W
SAT IIs: 800 Literature, 800 Latin, 800 Chemistry, 750 U.S. History, 750 Biology E
4.0UW, 4.557W
Rank: 1/118
5 APs junior year (all 5’s), 6 APs this year
Senior Yr Courseload: Most rigorous
Awards, etc.: A nat’l essay contest, Senate Youth, nat’l 4 Latin Exam gold medals w/ 3-years perfect score, nat'l merit commended, Ap scholar w/ distinction, local essay contests, biology fellowship, JCL state convention 1st place</p>

<p>ECs listed on app: Running, Skiing (both Varsity captain 9-12), Student Council president, Red Cross Hospital volunteer, Free Tutoring Program coordinator, JCL officer, Editor-in-Chief school paper
Job/Work Experience: Summer research assistant and school year waitress (not a steady job)
Essays (subject and responses): How I feel when I run in the city versus running in pastures (local admissions officer loved it), another more clichéd essay about a someone I tutored
Teacher Recs: One math, one Latin, both teachers had me for at least 2 years and knew me for six years outside the classroom
Counselor Rec: Great, I guess?
Interview (feel, interviewer and general location): Like most, excellent, was told he would personally call and talk to the admissions office for me; On-Campus was generic</p>

<p>Location/Person:
State or Country: MA
School Type, Average Stats of School (if available): Poor public, sends a few to ivies, average SAT around 1800 or higher
Ethnicity: Japanese
Gender: F
Income Bracket: 50,000-60,000
Hooks (URM, first generation college, etc.): 1st generation college</p>

<hr>

<p>I love Latin so much. I conveyed that in my app more than I did in the above profile, of course. I thought being so unusual (Japanese classics major) would do it for me. Clearly not.</p>

<p>Harvard, Princeton, UPenn, Dartmouth, Brown, Columbia are all reaches and I know that. My parents want it, but I think that with my SAT I score, there is not much hope for me for RD. Accurate statement?.</p>

<p>Also reaches are Swarthmore, Williams, Amherst, Middlebury, and Vassar. ** Correct?**.</p>

<p>Now for match: Wellesley? And safety: Skidmore or maybe UMich (dad was once employed there, does that have any impact?).</p>

<p>** How am I supposed to convey "interest" to all these schools? It's not possible that they are all my number one choice. **</p>

<p>I truly can imagine attending Williams, Princeton, Middlebury, and Columbia after some visits. It's hard to show that interest in the RD round since they are all ED colleges. *Is there any special way to show my special preference for these colleges in RD? *</p>

<p>If you made it through this record long post, thank you for even reading it. If you can answer one or two questions, I would be so grateful. PLEASE DO NOT FEEL THAT YOU HAVE TO ANSWER ALL MY QUESTIONS OR READ MY WHOLE POST! Thank you again.</p>

2

<p>Don't be down on yourself. Your stats are good.
Don't apply to so many schools. Try do focus on a few. Again, select reaches, matches and safeties. Three of each, maximum.
I think Wellesley is harder to get into than Vassar or Middlebury, but I could be wrong. You should definitely get into Skidmore. Wellesley, Vassar, Middlebury should all be matches. Being a first generation applicant with income in the $60k bracket should make you eligible for the Harvard Financial Aid Initiative.
As a Japanese, you are not considered a URM, though some LACs would be very interested in having you apply. Among them are Bowdoin and Bates, both excellent schools. My S particularly liked Bowdoin.
As for conveying interest, the schools do not have to know that you are applying elsewhere as well.
Good luck. You sound like an excellent candidate for all the schools you are considering.</p>

3

<p>Why did Yale not accept you? . . .what the...</p>

4

<p>Send in more recommendations--and do not waive confidentiality. Get in three or four more, read them over and send in the best two. Confidentiality is overrated in my opinion. You need recommendations that distinguish you from other stellar Asian female candidates--not the other student in your school. </p>

<p>For example, do you run for a track club? Do you have video of any of our races? You might pm MOmofWildChild to ask her advice about presenting yourself as a runner to the Yale athletics department. I have a friend who swears that her football/basketball son got into every school that got a video of him playing those sports.</p>

<p>Skiing is usually a high dollar sport--how did you manage to swing that sport? Do you plan to ski for the school team in college? Did you send in a video tape to the ski team at Yale? Do you have stats and video to send? soozievt's D skis for Brown--you might try to pm soozie and ask her advice about letting Yale know about your skiing. Do you have any upcoming ski competitions coming up? Do you board as well?</p>

<p>Also, you write well. Why don't you select some additional essays and send those in. You might ask marite to review and essay for you. She is an excellent critic. There are other CC parents who could help with a selection.</p>

<p>Also, talk to marite about presenting your interest and major....a few weeks ago she suggested that universities do need a few eccentric majors--but they give the most attention--and $$$--to the most popular majors which generate the biggest alum donors. Just a thought if you think your highly specific major hurt you. Other parents might disagree. Also, doesn't Harvard have the best and biggest East Asian department? </p>

<p>I think you have all the talking points--you just need the right framework. I can promise you one thing: you will be going to a fantastic school next fall.</p>

5

<ol>
<li>Screw Yale</li>
<li>don't know about your school, but IMO very few people should feel that they are a lock to get into a place like Yale. The valedictorian of my school, all those many years ago, was rejected Harvard Yale Princeton wound up going to Brown.</li>
</ol>

<p>Was this ultimately a big deal? Doesn't seem like it. He got PHD Harvard and has a big job now.</p>

<p>You submit your stuff, then they make these semi-arbitrary decisions on identical-looking applications. there is absolutely no reason to take this personally, or feel this in any way diminishes you or your prospects.</p>

<ol>
<li>figure out where you actually want to go. visit. Consider fit. Apply there. don't apply to places that don't fit nearly as well as the others. Interest = you've thought about the school, its environment, what it offers you & how you would fit in there, in more depth than just looking at its US News ranking. And there are very good reasons why you would want to be there, whch revolve around fit. And which you can articulate. I think it's harder to be convincing about this if you haven't even visited the school.</li>
</ol>

<p>Maybe for each school write a paragraph about why you want to go there & how it matches your interests. Then read them & see which is more convincing, to yourself.</p>

<p>Take nothing for granted. No shortcuts. go through all the hoops. On-campus interviews, etc.</p>

6

<p>I know that you are very down right now but it seems to me as a mom that you are going to wear yourself out trying to apply to as many schools as you have listed. I would pick maybe 4 or 5 reaches, a couple of matches and maybe 3 safeties that you would actually want to attend. I would not waste a lot of time trying to get Yale to take a second look. They will, or they won't. Whatever schools you choose, you should take the time to learn about them and at least try to visit/schedule a local interview. I also note that your schools seem to be mostly in the Northeast - can you look at other regions? There is life in college besides the Ivies and there are many colleges that are worth attending. I would also stop comparing myself to others - you are not just compared to your classmate, you are in a deferred pool with many other candidates, many of whom probably have the same stats/better stats than you. Our philosophy in our house is that getting into an Ivy or a top LAC is a crapshoot. We worked hard to make sure that our daughter was not fixated on one school over all others. You need to have alternatives. Good luck.</p>

7

<p>
[quote]
Send in more recommendations--and do not waive confidentiality.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>One of the very best pieces of advice I saw in a recent book about college admission was to remember that the waiver of the right to see the letter of recommendation applies only to a right established by United States federal statute for the student to be able to review certain materials in the student's admission file. The waiver applies as to the student against the school, BUT DOES NOT BIND THE TEACHER IN ANY WAY. In other words, any teacher or other recommender is always free to show a college applicant the letter the recommender wrote, before mailing it. So, yes, an applicant who is looking for good letters of recommendation should look for adults who know the applicant well and who also are willing to share the contents of the letter before the letter is put into the postal system. </p>

<p>Good luck to all the deferred students. Some will turn into admitted students at their early round colleges, and some will find other great schools.</p>

8

<p>something to think about...perhaps your school got complacent about the admits to yale of the years...and maybe those kids that got in weren't the "best"- remember all relative- sometimes some kids who "knew" they would get into Yale may not work so hard when they get there, thus the faith the school has in the counselor and teacher recs is not so strong</p>

<p>as well. it is a roll of the dice for the "perfect" yale student...so don't think you Failed...you didn't...this just wasn't the time for you...and it wasn't anything you did</p>

<p>as an aside, how large is your senior class....</p>

9

<p>If Yale or any other school regularly takes students from your school in theory makes it likely they will take someone this year. If you still feel Yale is your #1 choice might you ask your interviewer or GC to find out if there was a specific reason you were not taken? As to what pile you are in....assume nothing. Furthermore, even one minute spent worrying about the outcome of the other guy is time taken away from what you need to be doing. </p>

<p>You are in a bind as it is late and you really have to craft some reasonable applications in a hurry. You do not need your parents' disappointment as a backdrop, you need their support. Show them the books that say only 8% or whatever of applicants get into Yale, and then show them the SAT's ranges and ask them to please not create any more stress for you-- you will take care of that part!</p>

<p>You should only apply to schools you want to go to. Do not assume that just because you didn't apply ED you cannot show specific and real interest. Not everyone applies ED, especially not kids who come from 'poor public' schools. Eliminate this as a concern immediately and develop a relationship with the themes of each of the other schools which you do like and convey that feeling- definitely do not apologize for not applying ED...</p>

<p>And finally, sorry for being blunt, but work on feeling a bit less self righteous/indignant about what you deserve or are owed. Yes, you are a very solid applicant in a field of very solid applicants. </p>

<p>If this felt like a kick in the pants, it was. You made a mistake in thinking this was a given, as you now realize. You are tough and smart and worthy of all the great things that will happen for you in a few months. Good luck.</p>

10

<p>Given your stats and ECs I can only believe it comes down to your essays. For the RD round, dig deeper. If you want help, ask. Your parents are not the bosses of your entire future life. Even if they are, don't let adcoms know....</p>

<p>Talk. Post a lot in the forums of the schools you really like. Get people like sybbie for Dartmouth and marite for Harvard and maybe quiltguru if she is willing to help you for their schools.</p>

<p>This post to me indicates you will be accepted into one of the top schools. Tell your parents to wait. To be patient.</p>

<p>Were they Chinese, I would say, eat bitter. For now. It will be OK.</p>

11

<p>Kingdomcome, Take a deep breath, slow down and approach your situation with a coherent strategy.</p>

<p>First, I’m sorry about your disappointment with the results of your Yale SCEA application. After all of your RD applications have been sent out you can revisit (figuratively) Yale and think about what you can do to enhance what you’ve already sent in order to turn that deferral into an acceptance. As far as comparing yourself to other kids who were accepted or deferred, LET IT GO! You will never know the inner thoughts of the admissions committee. Don’t drive yourself crazy with envy, indignation or regret.</p>

<p>The most important task for you at this point is to put together a sensible list of schools that includes at least one safety. Aside from that safety, don’t worry about “will I get in?” There is nothing in your profile that would keep you out of any college in America. At the same time there is no GUARANTEE that you will get into any college in America. So the best approach is to choose a manageable list of schools that you really want to go to – including at least one safety – and present yourself in the most positive manner you can.</p>

<p>Don’t worry about not applying ED to the other schools. Admissions committees fully understand that everyone is not able or willing to apply early. They understand that most high powered applicants apply to several selective schools. You’ve visited, you’ve interviewed where applicable, you can write the “Why x” essay if asked. That’s enough. Have confidence that you have a HIGHLY desirable profile. Don’t start second guessing yourself. Make that list and send off strong applications.</p>

<p>So on to the list! You mention Harvard, Princeton, UPenn, Dartmouth, Brown, Columbia, Swarthmore, Williams, Amherst, Middlebury, Vassar, Wellesley, Skidmore and UMich. Although it’s not impossible to apply to 15 schools (I’m including Yale) it’s hard to do so in an effective manner. I’d suggest that you try to strategize and focus so that your applications will be consistently strong.</p>

<p>For reaches you’ve got the almost entire ivy league (what happened to Cornell?) plus Swarthmore, Amherst, Williams and Wellesley. For medium selectives Vassar, Middlebury and UMich. I would say that Skidmore is the only true safety. </p>

<p>You need to think about what you want: urban/rural/suburban, coed/female, sporty/fraternities etc., etc. Again, don’t think about where you’re likely to get in. Think about where you would best fit. Believe me this is what the colleges are thinking when they review your application. Obviously from your statistics – grades, scores, rank – you can do the work at any of these schools. So can many of their applicants -- more than they can possibly admit.</p>

<p>What will put you into the admit pile are your more intangible assets and fit is a major consideration, especially at the smaller LACs.</p>

<p>Being first generation to attend college is a big plus. Being Japanese is a plus at some schools especially the rural LACs and neutral at others. Running and skiing are only pluses at some schools if you are able or willing to participate on a varsity level. At others that value outdoorsy athletic ability your participation in these sports on a club or personal may be a plus. That’s what I mean by fit. Think about what you can bring to the colleges that they need to form a diverse and balanced class.</p>

<p>Good luck and let us know how you do.</p>

12

<p>I am sorry about the deferral, but now you have a short time to craft some really good applications.</p>

<p>I think that you have gotten a lot of good advice but I disagree with your buck shot approach to applying to almost the full range of ivies. </p>

<p>First of all the locations, schools and on campus cultures are vastly different. If you like being in the city and and all the big city has to offer Penn and Columbia may be great fits, while attending someplace more rural like Dartmouth or Williams may not do it for you. One of the first things I think you need to consider is beside name recognition, what is it that you are looking for from your college experience and focus on those schools that can meet your needs.</p>

<p>The other side of the coin is that overlap schools like Williams, Dartmouth, Amherst, Brown and Middlebury are also places where a lot of emphasis is placed on crafting a class that consists of a community of learners from all walks of life. While the same emphasis on community is there at Swat, the it is a totally different environment (no greeks, no sports). Interesteddad, can really talk to the Swarthmore experience. Looking at the school years, there is a totally different experience between the semester systems at most schools, and schools that have J-terms (Williams) and quarter systems (Dartmouth, where quarters run for 10 weeks, with midterms given in both the 3rd and 7th weeks).</p>

<p>At most of the selective schools where how you fit in in filling the schools institutional mission is just as important (probably more important) as having perfect grades or scores keep in mind almost everyone who applies is capale of doing the work and no one cares one iota about your SAT scores once you are admitted. These are smaller schools with really cohesive communities so a lot of emphasis is placed on as momrath stated in crafting a diverse and balanced class. Even at smaller schools there is a different feel on campus at a school with 2000 students (Williams, Amherst, Middlebury) and a school of 4000 students.</p>

<p>I think that it may be of value to geographically cast a wider net, because being from MA can also hurt you as there is no shortage of students applying to these schools the same if you were coming from NY, NJ, CT or CA (probably the top 5 feeder states).</p>

<p>We already know the can do about you (grades and scores), now you need to focus on the can do and how you fit in and see your self as part of the community of learners.</p>

<p>good luck to you</p>

13

<p>I do NOT agree that you should not waive your right to see the recommendations. If schools think the recommendations are not fully honest because you will see them, they will give them less weight. And even if you waive your right, the teachers may still show them to you. I think you should waive your right, but just carefully consider your choice of recommenders and make sure they have plenty of info about you from a resume. YOur guidance counselor may also be willing to review them for you and give you feedback about which ones are the best.</p>

14

<p>Your stats are fine. Don't give them a second thought. It sounded to me like you didn't send in a recommendation from your research job. I'd do that, plus any other recommendations from people who know you outside school. Personally, I wouldn't send in more teacher recommendations. I agree with the other parents. You need to refine your list. You must have preferences. Core curriculum vs lots of choices? Urban vs Rural? Small vs. Large? Strengths in the majors you are considering?</p>

<p>All is not lost at Yale, you still have a decent chance of getting in. Let them know you are still interested. If you win any awards or have done anything interesting be sure to let them know.</p>

15

<p>Wait on telling Yale until the end of January. Perhaps by then you will have semester grades and something else to report along with your continued interest in Yale. Meanwhile, focus on trimming down your list and writing applications.</p>

16

<p>I don't have a whole lot to add. I agree with everyone else: (1) You are a really strong candidate for any school. No need to feel inadequate in any respect. Chances are that, come April, you will be choosing among great options. (2) But if you just apply to Ivy League schools and top-5 LACs, you are taking something of a gamble. It is conceivable -- not likely, but conceivable -- that none of them would accept you. (3) I also don't endorse the idea of doing 20 applications this week.</p>

<p>For someone like you, it's hard to talk about "reaches" and "matches" -- the schools that fit your profile are all "reaches". You just need to apply to a few schools that are more likely to accept you than Yale (or Harvard, Princeton, Columbia, Stanford).</p>

<p>Both of my kids' best friends are heavy classics people. Both of these friends applied/are applying to Chicago and McGill (and one is applying to UToronto, too) because of the strengths of the Latin/Greek programs there. McGill or Toronto would absolutely qualify as safeties for you. Michigan is probably sort of a match/safety -- its admissions seem very numbers-driven -- but I don't know about its classics program.</p>

17

<p>
[quote]
And even if you waive your right, the teachers may still show them to you.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Yes, the teacher can show the recommendation to the student, waiver or not.</p>

18

<p>Lots of good advice above. I would only add in the strongest possible terms that you cannot consider Michigan as anything close to a safety or even a strong match if you haven't yet applied. This is extremely late to be applying to Michigan (which is a rolling admission school). We know a val with top scores, recs, ECs etc who applied in late December and was deferred and ultimately rejected there. He was accepted RD to more than one Ivy or Ivy equivalent, so obviously no problem with the app.</p>

19

<p>First, give yourself 24 hours to feel bad. It's OK. Now focus on what you can do. I may be in the minority here but I think your list is nuts. If you know you love Latin and you are confident that you want to study classics then you should be building your list based on the strengths of the classics programs at a given school, not on the overall "name" of the school. I'd pare down to 1 more reach, three matches and two safeties. Go to one of the collegefinder sites and plug in classics.</p>

<p>Look in the midwest and in the south where your geography and your Japanese background is an advantage, not a disadvantage. </p>

<p>A quick search of Peterson's for the major "Latin" revealed 85 schools, among them Carleton, Fordham, Hamilton, Lawrence University, Oberlin, Rhodes, Smith, Catholic University of America, and U. of Scranton. All have had favorable comments by people on this board, and only Carleton and possibly Oberlin are reachy for somebody with your stats, and I would guess Oberlin is less appealing to Asian students because of its arty reputation.</p>

20

<p>Thykingdomcome --</p>

<p>First of all : You are going to be in some enviable school in September. Rationally, you know that. Eventually, your emotions will catch up with your intellect, and you will truly believe it.</p>

<p>Second -- A thought on how to show interest in a specific college or university:</p>

<p>Use local alumni as a resource. Even if you live in a rural area (as is suggested by your small class size), there are probably at least a few adults in your area who are alumni of several of the schools you are targeting.</p>

<p>Start with the faculty, administration, and guidance department at your high school. Find the most clueful teacher you have, and get some names. If even one adult at your school (or church, or synagogue, or food co-op...) is an alum of an Ivy or a top LAC, or is married to such an alum, it is likely that he or she will know others, or will know OF others. People like that tend to network, even loosely and informally.</p>

<p>If you are as outstanding a person and student as you present here (and I assume that you are at least as good in person, if not better), then your teachers and guidance people are likely to be not merely on your side, but even indignant on your behalf -- as well as on their own behalf. (What can you possibly mean, Yale, implying that our valedictorian may not be quite good enough for you this year???) A good teacher, one of those who's in it for the right reasons, will be genuinely delighted to help you out. Getting a deserving student into a top school and/or that kid's dream school is one of the highlights of teaching. Your teachers are probably eager to do anything they can to further your cause.</p>

<p>So, get names, and then contact the alumni. Those (if any) who are official area contacts for their alma maters (sorry, wrong Latin plural) will be used to this kind of call. Those who are not official contacts will almost always be happy to be contacted anyway -- people generally like to be seen as "experts" on something, and they also generally like to reminisce about their college days. You will provide someone a flattering opportunity to do both. (And our hypothetical willing teacher or guidance counselor will have quietly prepped this person for your call, and will already have pled your case, in all likelihood. That's how the over-25-set does things.)</p>

<p>On the phone, or even over coffee, find out from the alumnus/alumna what makes that school special. You will be able to provide convincing detail in your "why Swarthmore" (or wherever) statement, and you may also glean some direction re: which of your target schools might be the best and the worst fits. (caveat: As a bright kid, you will know better than to base your overall judgement on just one person's opinion, any more than a bright kid would base a decision solely on the personality of a campus tour guide.)</p>

<p>If, while "networking," you were to luck into an alum who still has connections with Yale, a phone call or postcard from that alum could serve as your January or February reminder to Yale that you still love-love-love that school.</p>

<p>As to your list of schools : Vassar is more of a safety for you than an outright match. Middlebury is a likely match. Given your commitment to sports, Williams is a high match/slight reach.</p>

<p>I second the recommendation that you look at Bowdoin. Davidson is also an excellent choice, although it is not well-known. if you are willing to leave the northeast, consider Carleton or Pomona. If you like a larger school but do not want to venture too far south, how about UNC Chapel Hill?</p>

<p>This delay (deferral) is, naturally, infuriating, but it will make things all the more satisfying when those yummy acceptances roll in, come April.</p>

<p>The response that you have gotten here, from parents, is a tribute to your stats, but moreso to your attitude. Parents (like good teachers) are eager to reward and help the kids they think have worked for and earned a good outcome. You have obviously convinced the parents' board that you deserve a good outcome: the adcoms cannot be very far behind.</p>

<p>Good luck!!!!</p>