<p>Off my game,folks. I got miffed at a young fella and that really shouldn't happen. It colored a couple of other responses also. So, can I get by with this as a general "If I've offended you, I apologize" or should I go post by post?</p>
<p>The young man in question and I will still disagree on the ethical implications of his Early Decision situation , but we have both personally apologized for unfortunate word choices. He did so first, to his credit and my shame.</p>
<p>curmudgeon,</p>
<p>I think this apology you offered is a very nice thing. I personally had not been embroiled in that discussion, but I did read some of it, so I know what it was about.</p>
<p>The following is NOT directed specifically to curmudgeon: </p>
<p>That discussion was, however, not the first time I've observed parents and kids going at it on these boards. I am of the mind that even if the two disagree, there are respectful and appropriate ways for BOTH sides to express their ideas. </p>
<p>I will probably be unpopular for stating this opinion, but I feel I must. When it comes right down to it, I guess I hold the parents to a higher standard than I do the kids. Parents have, presumably, the wisdom and maturity that takes many years of experience to evolve. I've heard it said before that if these kids are bright enough to be applying to top level colleges, they should be smart enough to realize all of the implications of it. And to that I would just say, there is a world of difference between intelligence and maturity. One does not guarantee the other. And not all students are blessed with parents as knowledgeable, caring, motivated, and involved as most of you on this forum.</p>
<p>I sometimes think we let our personal buzz issues come to the forefront without our even realizing it. For some, the mere idea of breaking an ED contract is absolutely unthinkable. I personally am in this camp. In fact, my son's EA school was settled upon precisely because we KNEW we could not commit to ED ANYWHERE, given our family size and financial means. To others, though, there are different priorities in the list of considerations. </p>
<p>For the record, I do not think the colleges, in general, have the market cornered on ethical behavior. After my post detailing my own son's rejection from Yale's EA round, I received too many pm's to count, some of them detailing egregious unethical behavior on the part of some schools. In the end, it is the individual who must decide what he can and cannot live with and which consequences he is willing to face.</p>
<p>Back to curmudgeon's apology--Thanks again for offering it. I think it will be appreciated by all. ~berurah</p>
<p>I don't spend, in general, as much time on this site an many of you do, but in the time that I have been here, I have observed that certain parents, consistently and with more patience than I can imagine anyone mustering, respond with honesty and kindness time after time after time. I know there are many more of you than I can name right here, but I just wanted to offer many kudos to: jamimom, marite, northstarmom, and soozievt. If my son had any questions/concerns, even if his opinions differed from yours, I'd send him in your direction any day! </p>
<p>with fondness and much respect, ~berurah</p>
<p>Hopefully yesterday's interactions have given a young man a kick in the butt that will positively effect his life. In many families, communities and cultures, honor and integrity have been lost as a key life lesson. Sometimes a hammer is necessary to get through.</p>
<p>I agree with Kirmum.
Curmudgeon,
I appreciate your posting an apology. I empathize with the emotions that inspired you to post the comment to the young man. I respect and share your values when it comes to integrity.
Beruah, Thanks for the kind words. I also share your views that parents should be held to a high standard. It is so disappointing to see so many parents who seem to think that it's appropriate to raise their kids with the viewpoint "every man for himself." Sad.</p>
<p>kirmum, </p>
<p>You are, of course, correct when you point out that honor and integrity have become lost in many families, cultures, and communities. Unfortunately, this serious deficit has made itself obvious all the way up the ladder, from individuals who choose to renege on ED contracts, to businesses like Enron, to colleges which choose to admit less qualified students over more qualified ones for internal political reasons. I think each entity should be held to the exact same standard of integrity. Instead of demanding it from individuals while blithely turning our heads away from the even more blatant occurences, we should not accept it as part and parcel of ANY organization.</p>
<p>It is my opinion that parents have the burden of teaching their offspring the importance of honor and integrity. I have done that with my six. If, however, any of them were to act in a way contrary to what we have tried to teach him, I would wish for him to be guided with a gentle hand rather than kicked in the butt.</p>
<p>~berurah</p>
<p>" If, however, any of them were to act in a way contrary to what we have tried to teach him, I would wish for him to be guided with a gentle hand rather than kicked in the butt."</p>
<p>While a gentle hand is preferable, it doesn't work for all. For that matter, neither do kicks in the butts work for all.</p>
<p>I guess I am a bit spoiled. It has always worked for mine. But you are probably right in that some would not respond to anything. ~b.</p>
<p>berurah, I come from the "get the switch" mentality, so straight talk seems gentle to me! In all honesty, it is my belief that we try too hard to be gentle and make sure that our kids are happy. Happy as defined by little authority threatening them. I think this child-centered focus on happiness has largely produced a generation of entitled spoiled brats. I'm sure I'll be flamed, but it's my honest opinion. I have had the most success with my own kids and others in my kife with no bs straight talk.</p>
<p>Well maybe I should be called curmudgeon II but if I'm looking at the correct post I don't see what's so bad about it?? It's nice that curmudgeon apologized but this person clearly broke the rules and I don't think there's anything wrong with letting him know how that affects people.</p>
<p>One of my favorite people on this board sent me a PM this morning on this topic. This is a young woman who many here would accuse of being a silver spoon kid, a top boarding school, ivy league rich kid. Yet she was shocked at the response of parents on this board. Just shocked!! Colleges have no honor so kids should not! It's not legally binding! Gosh, it's a better deal! Should we be gentle with the parents too? Was someone really gentle earlier on with them, enabling them not only to think this way but to raise children with these beliefs?</p>
<p>kirmum,</p>
<p>I happen to be in full agreement with your post...no flames here! I, too, am rather conservative in my parenting attitudes. I also feel like I've had great success with my kids. It's not too easy to have spoiled brats when each one has five siblings to contend with for time, attention, and money. I am NOT a believer in the idea that kids are on the same level as adults and should be treated in the same way as adults. That said, my straight talk has usually been offered in a calm and reasonably polite way. Also, I guess <em>I</em> just do not feel comfortable chastising other people's kids. That's just me. ~berurah</p>
<p>I think one of the problems of message boards- and email in general- is that it is very easy to misconstrue someone's meaning. We all look at things from our own personal viewpoint and draw on varied experiences. I would hope that we don't get too judgmental here.</p>
<p>I believe in the "takes a whole village" approach to child rearing. Just as I spent a lot of time on-line and IRL helping young people, I also will chastize them when I feel it's appropriate. I also know that often young people will listen to words of wisdom better from someone who's not their parent than they will from someone who is. There also are some parents who lack wisdom. For some young people, the kindness and caring from on-line strangers on boards like this may be their main opportunity to learn values such as integrity and ethics.</p>
<p>NSM,</p>
<p>I do agree with you and can see exactly where you are coming from. You appear to be very good and effective at what you do. Mine is a personal issue with me--I intended no judgment of others who felt comfortable in that role. ~berurah</p>
<p>For me, the saddest part of the Valdez conversation yesterday is that I think Valdez does have qualms about reneging on his ED agreement but his parents do not. If he didn't have reservations, I don't believe he'd be asking for the opinions of parents on CC. If nothing else, some of the parental opinions strengthen or validate that little inner voice of his that said to him, "question this, Valdez."<br>
Northstarmom's posting of the Martin Luther King Jr. quote prompted me to post last night. I have that quote posted on a bulletin board and often read it to my kids when they find themselves in situations where what is right is not easy. Heck, I read it to myself as a reminder at times. I don't often post, but I can hardly expect my kids to take stands if I don't, even if it's a little controversy on CC. And Valdez did ask for opinions, after all.</p>
<p>I agree with Cricket. I think that Valdez is responding to parental pressure and to a parental guilt trip. I suspect that if he weren't at heart ethical, he would not be posting his business so publicly as if begging Princeton to pressure him to not break his commitment.</p>
<p>I also suspect that his parents somehow think that Princeton will match A&M's offer. The parents may be hearing erroneous info from other parents who assume that a stellar URM such as Valdez can get a free ride anywhere, including to Ivies, which most people don't realize give only need-based aid. The parents may even think that if things don't work out with Princeton, Valdez can get into other Ivies and can get better offers.</p>
<p>Given the advice that Valdez is getting from his parents about ED, I also suspect that his parents may be adept at hiding assets from college financial aid offices.</p>
<p>curmudgeon, I think your public apology sets a fine example for all to see. Even us parents can sometimes let our emotions get the better of us, especially when it is an issue of ethics that one feels strongly about. I know last year I had a very difficult with some kids who chose to accept more than one school because even by the end of April they could not make up their minds. Of course, I was more sensitive to the issue at the time because I had a son that was waitlisted by a school that was the subject of some of these "dual acceptance" decisions.</p>
<p>It is one thing to think it is unethical to break an ED commitment. It is another thing to suspect the kid is now going to apply to other Ivies and try to get better offers all over the place. And to suspect the parents are hiding assets from college aid financial offices... WOW!!!</p>
<p>My children maintain that I am the strictest mother they know... (I just realized what my screen name should have been. MeanMom!)</p>
<p>I thought one of the interesting points brought up re Valdez was that it could negatively effect other kids from his HS in future years, because there might be a thought that the GC had not properly emphasized the ED commitment. That takes it from a personal integrity situation into a hurting others situation.</p>
<p>I was brought up by the kind of parents who would not roll through a stop sign even if in the middle of the mojave desert at 3 am. Their absolute integrity and stickler-ism was a great influence on me and I do my best to pass it on.</p>
<p>One of the reasons my kids think I am too strict-- I enforce rules that the <em>school</em> lets slide, such as HS dress code, and no junk food in lunches at grammar school. The kids think, "other kids break the rule and don't get in trouble, so it is not really a rule." I have been appalled at what the schools let slide.</p>