A letter to my college sophomore...what do you think?

Parents Social Lounge
1

<p>Here's what I gave my soon to be sophomore, for whom I am "full pay" at her dream private school. I am sure there are many mistakes I have made, but I have to move on. I am posting this because she is a few clicks way from an unsub. Stafford loan. I would like to add the addendum that follows, but wonder if I am making yet mother mistake. She was admitted with Math & CR SAT's in the 25th percentile (writing in the 75th), and finished freshman year with a GPA in the 25th percentile ( about 2.98 at an arguably top 10 uni, primarily because of a D in math.) She graduated within the top five of a class of '89 with few AP's. UW GPA about 3.9; W about 4.2. Certainly among the "smartest", but NOT the most hard working.... unless you count EC's....</p>

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<p>I know this is a lot, and I apologize. That’s why we’ve been putting it off.</p>

<p>“What we’ve learned since Senior Year”</p>

<p>We don’t have enough money left to be casual about how we spend it. The senior year agreement was that you would contribute $3,500.00, and not go on academic probation. We thought the $3.500.00 would cover books, airfare, and other expenses. We didn’t really follow-up on this, but with the scholarship from dad’s job, and the money from Aunt Lil, we didn’t have to talk about it. There will be neither this year.</p>

<p>“The part about the Loan”</p>

<p>Here’s what I learned about loans. You have to fill out the FAFSA (I will try to finish my part by Tuesday), and I don’t think you will qualify for a subsidized loan. But you WILL qualify for an unsubsidized loan. This is a loan that YOU (not your parents), are responsible for paying back, with interest. You can pay interest while in school or along with the amount you borrow, after you graduate. Dad and I are still covering about $50,000.00 this year (the cost of my car, free and clear!), but you need to borrow about $4,000.00 to cover the rest. Over 3 years you would owe $12,000.00. This is not considered a lot, but you should use the Stafford loan calculator to see how much it would cost per months, to pay it off, after you graduate. </p>

<p>“The Part about the Academic Expectation”</p>

<p>Last years academic expectation was set pretty low, because I didn’t how you would respond to this challenge. I am still not sure, but if you were doing your best, you should know NOW is the time to consider a transfer to a school where doing your best will put you in the top of your class, instead of the bottom. What do YOU think is a reasonable expectation? It needs to be high enough not to ruin your chances for a transfer (i.e.no D’s, a cumulative GPA at least 3.0, and a math class for UC Davis).</p>

<p>“The Part about the Transfer Application”</p>

<p>You may want this option if you don’t want to fill out loan applications, or start paying them back right after graduation. . We no longer have the money or the merit aid options to consider transfer to a private, but there is probably a UC that would be a perfect fit.
If the economy does not get worse, you won’t have to borrow if you go to a UC. Transfer applications are a little different, and they are due in November. It may be too late to consider a transfer as a science major (i.e. a D in math won’t transfer), but being a science major at UCSB or UCD, may be easier than being a science major at Duke. Check out the UC Davis Animal major! You won’t HAVE to transfer if you get in, but at least you will have this option. Please consider this strongly. </p>

<p>Again, I know this probably seems like a lot, but we really feel it’s an important part of your education, and becoming an adult.</p>

<p>Love you much and very proud, mom and dad</p>

<p>Addendum; If you go to EVERY class 1st semester, we will pay interest on the loan, fall '09. If you improve your GPA to better than 3.0, we will pry interest on the loan, Spring '10. If we reach such m agreement each semester, it Will reduce your principal by $ 2000.00.</p>

<p>I do not want her to think we are paying for grades, which we have never had to do. But she has been able to succeed in her little pond, with only moderate effort, for more than a decade, and I want to help her find long term motivation for overcoming her procrastination.</p>

2

<p>I am curious why you are dumping all of this to her in a letter instead of sitting down and having a conversation. And isn’t this the kind of thing you discuss back in June at the latest and not a week before school starts?</p>

3

<p>I don’t know anything about your relationship with your child or your current circumstances, so this might not be the right advice for you, but if my parents sent me a letter like that, I’d be furious with them for not breaking that kind of news to me in person (or over the phone if I were far away). </p>

<p>So, just my opinion, but a conversation would be a way better way to address this than a letter (where you move from loan expectations to academic expectations to transfer possibilities (!) so quickly that she’ll feel bowled over by it all). In a conversation you could gauge her reactions and take her through all this information at a pace that she could deal with. </p>

<p>Good luck.</p>

4

<p>I agree with the previous poster. Its one thing to have notes for a conversation, quite another to simply present a letter.</p>

<p>While I think its perfectly reasonable to have expectations about how your child will perform in school when it costs so much money, this should be less about a ‘business arrangement’ (which is what it sounds like) and more about one’s parents taking an interest in and actually TALKING to their child.</p>

<p>Of course, we don’t have complete information as there may be other extenuating reasons why the grades weren’t up to snuff. Is it possible that this first year was a very hard transition? If so, this letter may simply add more to the frustration and push your child in the wrong direction.</p>

5

<p>You are all right. No excuses. We have talked about it somewhat, but eyes glaze, and no action taken. I get a little digressive in conversations with her, and lose my point. She has no patience for that, and says “why are you still talking”? And I am a child psychiatrist! She was gone some of the summer as a camp counselor. Sudden departure, no access. Returned last Thursday. Leaving on Sunday. Aunt Lil died, at age 99, last week. Source of the college fund. She turned down good merit aid, and several UC’s, including Cal. Struggled 1st semester, being so far from friends and family and didn’t want to go back. Second semester much better. Because we didn’t pull out at the right time, no money left for sib. H is worried . I’d have to do work I loathe, to make it back. FWIW, the initial letter was quite well received, with immediate action on FAFSA & Stafford.</p>

6

<p>I would consider outlining your points on paper so you keep on task, but talking it through among the 3 of you. I don’t think it’s a bad idea to do a follow up in writing so everyone is clear on what was agreed to.</p>

<p>In reading this we get that you and DH seem to think that a UC transfer may be the best plan, but where does DD stand now? Did Duke turn out to be all she hoped or is she open to leaving? You could not pry my rising soph out of his school, it would be a holy war.</p>

7

<p>She does NOT want to leave Duke, but it’s because of friends and EC’s. NOT because of the academic environment. H has a BIG problem with that, but to be fair, I think it has a LOT to do with how she got in. I don’t want her to transfer, but I also don’t want to feel I’m working harder than she is. H was hoping she’d come around to a science major. That would really be “worth it”. She’s leaning towards English. I think we both think if we talked, he would say “the wrong thing”</p>

8

<p>I think the letter is a great idea. Some families do much better communicating this way because, as seems to be the case with yours, some family members (my H is one) can take waaay too long to say things and everyone else’s eyes tend to glaze over. A letter, where everything is literally spelled out in black and white and can be referred to again and again, seems like a good solution, particularly as the first one worked well with your D. I hope for the best for all of you in the upcoming year.</p>

9

<p>Oh, does this bring back memories! D had a not bad freshman year and we thought all was going to be well at a top university. Too much time spent on ECs, friends, a job she didn’t need for money, and a couple of tough classes made for a disappointing sophomore first semester. Second semester was marginally better, after dropping the job and one of the ECs.</p>

<p>At the end of sophomore year, we told her that that a transcript with blotches on it could close down avenues she might want to pursue in the future. But this was her life. She dictated her priorities with her time. Just promise us that you’ll graduate in 4 years.</p>

<p>She wasn’t close to academic probation or anything. But she didn’t take advantage of the intellectual things available at her college, as we might have wished–although she did max out on friends and ECs. </p>

<p>After a certain age, parents should not have to feel personally concerned about a kid’s grades (unless we’re talking about probation). It was part of our letting go.</p>

10

<p>Make an ouline for yourself and speak to your child. If your husband lacks the courage to speak to his child about his wishes, then he needs to let go of what her major is going to be. </p>

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<p>By tying a financial incentive to her gpa, that is exactly what you are doing so why you would not want her to think that is a mystery.</p>

<p>What is it with child psychologists, letters to children, and the need for a buy in from the child when the parents do something they don’t want to admit they are doing? (says the daughter of a child psychologist who has met many peers.) Good grief.</p>

11

<p>I think a letter is actually a very smart idea. It will give the D a chance to process all the information and come up with a game place before what could be a difficult situation with lots of excuse, defensiveness and distractions.</p>

<p>What I would do is this however:</p>

<p>Dear lovely daughter, we have some things we need to figure out and when the three of us sitdown, we all get off track, so dad and I sat down and came up with some options. Please take a look and we will discuss our options.</p>

<p>We are sending this letter so that we are all clear on what our responsibilities are, what jobs we each need to do, what needs to get done in order to move forward. We have talked ad nauseum about what we expect and what you haven’t done. At this point, we need to move forward. </p>

<p>1- fafsa, my part will be done by Tuesday. </p>

<p>2- We are willing to pay this much $$. </p>

<p>3- Tution is this much $$</p>

<p>4- Your loans will need to be $$</p>

<p>5- Your grades have not been what they should or could be, so when we talk, lets hear your ideas on how to remedy that</p>

<p>6- etc etc</p>

<p>(if you do it bullet point wise, with no getting distracted. I would let D know that you are doing this in writing, not because you want to be cold or anything, but she knows how when you all talk about this, emotions tend to run high. If you approach it in such away that its not an attack, but an adult negotiation and a way of finding mutally agreed upon solutions. And say that you hope that by laying all the cards on the table, that you know she will step and be the adult you know she is capable of. Its all in the presentation. If you have done the conversation thing and everyone goes off in tangents, your D will be glad she is giving something she can read, ponder, and not be blindsided at the dinner table. </p>

<p>I have a friend whose daughter is really mis managing the money. Mom emailed D what mom was willnig to spend money on, how she expected the money she was giving D for food to be spent, etc. She laid out what she was willing to contribute.</p>

<p>She then wrote that she knew that D was smart enough to manage the money better, and hoped that she would have to resort back to high school allowance type of thing,. She also offered to buy gift cards to help with the budget process, if D was feeling overwhelmed first time living alone. Other stuff was talked about but mom was careful to lay out all the options, clear expectations, clear budget, clear what mom and dad were willing to do, so long as D held up her end.</p>

<p>When D and mom got together to discuss the game plan, D had had a chance to think about what she had been doing, and went to mom with clarity. </p>

<p>My friend said it was a great talk, because d was really clear about everything and new she wasn’t going to be attacked (teen think) for past mistakes, but would be given the chance to step up. It actually was cathartic for both. Mom knew if she just sat down cold with D, it was going to be unproductive, after past experiences. The email was almost like a negotiation tool.</p>

12

<p>"What is it with child psychologists, letters to children, and the need for a buy in from the child "</p>

<p>Hmm… I’ll have to think about that, but it could be a good thing… </p>

<p>BTW, I am a child PsychIATRIST… but my dad was a psychologist…we used to say “could you just whip us?”</p>

<p>Also, H would love to speak his mind… I’m the one who’s not “feeling it”. I WILL acknowledge that two parents, two styles, is a good thing</p>

13

<p>Shrinkrap,
I sent you a PM.</p>

14

<p>I recall a discussion I initiated with my parents many years ago, after 3 semesters of college, when I suggested that I should leave my LAC to go to the local community college. I loved the LAC, but my grades weren’t very good, and I was more interested in my EC’s than my academics. I thought I was wasting their money. My parents, both college educated and solidly middle class - but not with extra money to throw around - insisted that I stay at the LAC. </p>

<p>My parents gave me the classic “roots and wings” and I decided on a humanities major, and continued with an occasional good grade, but overall mediocre grades. I was the sole recepient of the highest leadership award at my college. I am an active alum. I am not a superstar in my chosen professional field, but have always able to support myself. I never had to ask my parents for money, after they had given me me the extremely generous gift of paying my tuition, room and board for undergraduate school. In those EC’s and memorable discussions with faculty and classmates, I learned so much more than what was shown on my transcript.</p>

<p>If you have real financial issues that are substantially different from what you thought you had when your daughter entered school, those need to be discussed with her. But, if you’re using financial issues to get your daughter to change her major or improve her grades, you should seriously reconsider your strategy. </p>

<p>You are a psychiatrist…and I’m not…but there are lots of issues in post #7 beyond costs and grades.</p>

<p>If she had a D in math, and has nearly a 3.0 average, her other grades should be at least B’s. That’s pretty good for someone who traveled across the county to a completely new environment.</p>

<p>I agree with post #9. Make sure graduation in 4 years is a stated expectation. Make sure you’ve expressed concerns about “next steps” if she does not have great grades. Make sure she knows the level of support you are willing to provide. And then let her use her wings to fly and, hopefully, soar.</p>

15

<p>^^Said better than I could say, 2boysima!</p>

16

<p>“If you have real financial issues that are substantially different from what you thought you had when your daughter entered school, those need to be discussed with her.”</p>

<p>H feels this way, but absolutely does NOT want to share details. He’s agreed to not changing the rules, but wants to strengthen the ones we made last year.</p>

<p>“but there are lots of issues in post #7 beyond costs and grades.”</p>

<p>If you mean H sees this differently (and different than I), yes. That’s okay with me.</p>

<p>“If she had a D in math, and has nearly a 3.0 average, her other grades should be at least B’s. That’s pretty good for someone who traveled across the county to a completely new environment.”</p>

<p>That helps more than you can know! I don’t know what to make of college grades, and being on CC doesn’t help. I am also not sure what to make of the fact that her school tells you exactly what number you are in your class.</p>

17

<p>The number in the class thing is weird…</p>

18

<p>Shrink, I think you are sending 3 or 4 different messages at the same time, which would be very tough for an adult to deal with… this is an adolescent (or pre-adult).</p>

<p>In my view, you can either afford to have her at Duke or you can’t. Simple story. I think it is very manipulative to be able to afford Duke if she majors in X but not in Y; it is extremely short-sighted to decide that you can afford it if she’s a B+ student but not a C student, etc. You can afford Duke- great. (understanding that there will be sacrifices from everyone, debt, etc.) </p>

<p>You can’t afford it- well it’s time to look at Plan B and that’s where you all need to focus-- finding an alternative which is do-able (which credits transfer? which don’t? what will it cost if she has to take an extra semester, take time off to find a school since it’s probably too late to get in anywhere for first semester, etc.)</p>

<p>Your somewhat muddled message of “we love you but you’ve messed up and now we don’t think it’s worth spending the money on you and by the way your siblings college fund is gone (not her fault by the way… would it be any “less gone” if she were an A student?) And plus Aunt Lil died because you got a D in math?” is, in my experience, going to set off a lot of bells.</p>

<p>So no- in my opinion, don’t send the letter. Under the guise of treating her like a grown up, don’t infantalize her by trying to teach “actions have consequences” in such a mixed up, confused way.</p>

<p>If you can afford Duke, then the focus ought to be about how SHE feels about her academic performance, what SHE wants to do to turn things around, the best way for HER to get the most out of the U. I imagine that you’ve already expressed your significant disappointment in ways both subtle and not. And there is no reason why she can’t turn around her grades over the next three years and end up with a perfectly respectable GPA with many good options for her future.</p>

<p>If you can’t affford Duke it’s time to get real. </p>

<p>I have no idea how my son did academically Freshman year. MIT is pass/fail first semester since so many kids have such a rocky adjustment from being top dog in HS to being one among a thousand smart kids. We told him that we’d fund four years of college; it would entail sacrifices from the whole family, and that if he weren’t prepared to take advantage of the opportunities at MIT we felt he’d be smart enough to find a less expensive way to get a degree. We did not define what constituted “taking advantage of opportunities”. For one kid, it means going to every lecture of every famous person who shows up on campus. For another, it means playing with a college orchestra, making dozens of friends from around the world, and finding a subject he/she is passionate about. For yet another, it means getting C’s in most of their classes, but working like a dog every night in the lab with a team of professors and grad students doing cool research. And of course, there are the kids with straight A’s who do nothing but study and sleep. Any of these kids could be described as “taking advantage of opportunities”.</p>

<p>We never asked for grades. I’m sure there were semesters where his performance overall disappointed him, and I’m sure he had to learn some tough-love type lessons. But he graduated on time, worked for a few years to earn some money, got into the grad program he wanted, and again… we have no idea how he’s doing. But at least my kids would not have responded well to the message that we could afford X maybe kinda sorta, but would prefer him to do Y if he were going to %^&* up the experience. And for the record- the job he got out of college was due to a professor who never taught him… someone he met through his extracurriculur activities, who networked really hard when he learned what our kid wanted to do after college. I’m sure a few extra points in his GPA wouldn’t have hurt, but it wouldn’t have gotten him the job he wanted-- that was due to a kind professor going out of his way for a kid whose interests (outside the classroom) coincided with his own.</p>

<p>Your kid may be different… but mine always appreciate a direct discussion. And we have had numerous discussions over the years about what we could and could not afford- we never had trouble saying no when something was beyond our budget, but the kids knew it would be an easy conversation.</p>

19

<p>shrinkrap, You skipped the end of my sentence. It read, “and the need for a buy in from the child when the parents do something they don’t want to admit they are doing.” I just want to make sure you got the whole thing.</p>

<p>So your H wants to speak his mind to his child but isn’t because you’re not feeling it? When I was about 30 I asked my Dad why he substitued my mother’s judgement for his own. You should see the letter I got over that.</p>

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<p>Beautifully said. Blossom as well.</p>

20

<p>Okay–</p>

<p>I may be the only one who feels this way, but…I think you are WAY out of line.</p>

<p>It may be that it doesn’t make sense financially to send your D to Duke. It may be that’s a mistake. It may be that your D failed to live up to her end of the bargain in terms of her financial contribution. On all those points, you may well have a right to complain. </p>

<p>But…</p>

<p>When you start telling her she should transfer because “being a science major at UCSB or UCD, may be easier than being a science major at Duke” and that your H thinks Duke would be worth it if she majored in science, but not in English, I think you’re being really unfair UNLESS SHE really wanted to study animal science or some such thing and gave up her dream for Duke. It certainly does NOT “sound” as if that’s the case–not when you write that your H was “hoping” she’d come around to science. It sounds as if you and your H are pushing a career in sciences on a kid who is not all that good at science.</p>

<p>You also seem to think that if she transfers to a UC, she will suddenly be top of the class and have access to opportunities she wouldn’t have at Duke. I think that’s wishful thinking. I would suspect that if she did transfer to a UC, she’d end up dropping the science major anyway–it obviously isn’t her strength. (And that has nothing to do with Duke.) I don’t think someone who got a D in math at Duke is suddenly going to get As in math at UCDavis.</p>

<p>You also write :"you should know NOW is the time to consider a transfer to a school where doing your best will put you in the top of your class, instead of the bottom. " </p>

<p>Why? Not only do I think it is wholly simplistic to assume that she’s suddenly going to be at the top of her class at UCSB or UCD if she transfers and majors in science, but I doubt a 2.98 is the "bottom’ of the class at Duke. Even if it is, there are folks who think it’s better to be bottom of the class at a top school than top of the class at a less competitive school. It’s a point that reasonable people disagree about. </p>

<p>If you want to suggest that she consider transferring rather than borrowing $, that’s fine. But suggesting that she transfer so she can major in science if that’s NOT what she’s interested in–isn’t going to help your case. Post #9 is right–it’s time you let her go–even if that means she graduates with a degree in English.</p>

<p>PS: I started typing this before several of the responses in the thread above showed up. Several of them make my points better than I do.</p>