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<p>ROFL!!! We are talkers. Lots of talking it out. I wonder if my kids have thought this.</p>
<p>Well, there is talking and then there is constructing a reality that does not address the real issues at hand but the adult insists it does and more talking and more confusion on the kids part and more talk, talk, talking by the talking professional and what kid stands a chance with that?</p>
<p>Obviously I have a heavy bias on this issue and equally obvious is that I have no idea what is going on in this specific family. However, that letter is full of red flags to me.</p>
<p>“In my view, you can either afford to have her at Duke or you can’t. Simple story.”</p>
<p>OK. But it doesn’t seem that black a white tome. What if affording it means giving up my private practice and going to work far m HMO?</p>
<p>"I think it is very manipulative to be able to afford Duke if she majors in X but not in Y; "</p>
<p>I never said anything like that to her, although my H would like to. H is 1st gen americian, 1st gen college, and that is his “reality”. He has agreed not to say it… yet…</p>
<p>“it is extremely short-sighted to decide that you can afford it if she’s a B+ student but not a C student, etc.”</p>
<p>Never said that either, but her getting into Duke was a BIG surprise, and we are learning. Learning about college finds, learning about what Duke students are like, learning about what SHE’s like when she has to try harder.</p>
<p>“Did Aunt Lil die because your kid got a D in math?”</p>
<p>Not sure where that come from, but Aunt Lil gave her money last year, when she didn’t make enough during the Sumner, and didn’t apply for a loan.</p>
<p>This is all good. Thanks!</p>
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<p>Then the two of you need to come to a common ground before this is communicated to your daughter. I personally think the idea of paying for Duke if she majors in X but not Y is wrong, and I would think that a child psychiatrist of all people would understand the necessity for young people to choose their own paths and not their parents’ hoped-for path. How would you counsel a young adult who wanted to be an artist but the parents wanted her to be a doctor? What if the parents weren’t on the same page, and one said it was ok and the other said no?</p>
<p>Davis has lots of pre-meds and pre-vets. I would assume the coursework and curves will be tough for science majors.</p>
<p>A grade of B is a 3.0; a B- is a 2.67. The reality is that she is still pretty much a B student. The reality is also that the math may be what hangs her up from majoring in science (Shrinkwrap, do I recall she was struggling in a non-calc course?).</p>
<p>As someone who a) prefers the written word in all its loveliness and b) is married to a former debater and litigator, I like having notes in front of me if we’re going to have one of these emotion-laded family discussion. I bring an agenda! This helps me find the right words to say and to express the reasons/arguments/other perspectives that I think of in quiet moments but that slip out of my head in the course of words flying about.</p>
<p>Part of my issue here is that you set a financial expectation for her last year but never followed through. While it’s great you had other funds, she didn’t have skin in the game. More importantly, now insisting on her financial share is going to feel like punishment.</p>
<p>Ther’s a big pile of spaghetti here on your plate with your D. I think that it needs to be untangled before asking your D to eat. In particular, I think it’s important that parents be on the same page about something as important as this.</p>
<p>Shrink, you’re the grown up. You determine your own career/life balance and it’s not fair to manipulate your kids with your own shtick. H and I decide how hard to work, how much to save, how much to spend on a mortgage, etc. I don’t throw it up to my kids that if we’d moved to a town with a crappy school system and lower taxes and cheaper housing I’d be driving a BMW instead of my falling apart Honda- I’m the parent, and I decide which trade-offs to make.</p>
<p>Again, you can either afford Duke or you can’t. Nobody is suggesting that you sell a kidney to pay for college. You need to set your own limits on what is and isn’t on the table. That’s not your kids problem. You then communicate that to your kid- “we’ve had some financial setbacks as you know; we can’t afford Duke. We all want what’s best for you, so we’d like to talk about some more affordable options.” Pretty simple.</p>
<p>I don’t believe that children benefit when parents make them feel guilty about parental decisions. But I"m not a shrink. Don’t make your kid responsible for whatever financial planning and career planning and life’s choices you and H have made along the way. That seems like a very efficient way to alienate your D far more than if you just let her know that Duke is no longer an option. Period, nobody’s fault, let’s move on to what we can afford and where you can get what you need out of college.</p>
<p>You need to be the grown up right now.</p>
<p>"I think it is very manipulative to be able to afford Duke if she majors in X but not in Y; "</p>
<p>I never said anything like that to her, although my H would like to. H is 1st gen americian, 1st gen college, and that is his “reality”. He has agreed not to say it… yet…</p>
<p>I have one who struggled with choosing a major; what interests her to stimulate heroic academic efforts doesn’t come with career prospects. Majors with ‘careers’ just don’t cut it for her.
My advice paraphrased many: Study what interests you, life will follow.<br>
When we (her parents) were in school, computers were housed separate air conditioned buildings. Her dad had no idea he’d be working on software integration from a laptop in his kitchen.</p>
<p>two other points I noted:
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<p>You’re not at the college admissions part of the game anymore. Stop thinking of her as someone who “slid in at the bottom and barely belongs there.” She’s not a barely-qualified Duke student – she’s a fully qualified Duke student. </p>
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<p>A $50K car is an expensive car; presumably you live a very nice lifestyle. I’m sorry, it doesn’t sit well with me, personally, that someone driving a $50K car is asking a child to borrow money.</p>
<p>“When you start telling her she should transfer because “being a science major at UCSB or UCD, may be easier than being a science major at Duke””</p>
<p>I will re-read, but Ts don’t think I said she "should transfer! I may be wrong, but Science students at Duke seem way more intimidating at Duke than Doris. She did In internship there this summer and loved Animal Science. At wd, her math score puts be in the 25 percentile. At Duke, it puts leer in the 25. they terre a special class for kids who score under 680. She voices interest in Science but we never push it.</p>
<p>"and that your H thinks Duke would be worth it if she majored in science,… H was “hoping” she’d come around to science. It sounds as if </p>
<p>Husband would, I won’t.</p>
<p>“you and your H are pushing a career in sciences on a kid who is not all that good at science.”</p>
<p>We all thought she was GREAT at Science.nchool isle competed with 2 boys for ALL the science awards. Middle of her 1st semester at Duke she said “I used to be good a things!”. She was called “the smartest kid in her school”. Just goes to show you, everything is relative.</p>
<p>"You also seem to think that if she transfers to a UC, she will suddenly be top of the class and have access to opportunities she wouldn’t have at Duke. </p>
<p>Actually I think she’d be lucky to get in. But she’d be close to home, and I can keep my private practice.</p>
<p>You also write :"you should know NOW is the time </p>
<p>Apps are due in November, and only between Sophomore and Junior Year.</p>
<p>to consider a transfer to a school where doing your best will put you in the top of your class, instead of the bottom. "</p>
<p>this might have been manipulative. I want her to think about how hard she’s working, and where it’s getting her.</p>
<p>Why? Not only do I think it is wholly simplistic to assume that she’s suddenly going to be at the top of her class at UCSB or UCD if she transfers and majors in science,</p>
<p>Your’e right</p>
<p>but I doubt a 2.98 is the "bottom’ of the class at Duke. </p>
<p>Actually 'the give the number along with the GPA.</p>
<p>Even if it is, there are folks who think it’s better to be bottom of the class at a top school than top of the class at a less competitive school. It’s a point that reasonable people disagree about.</p>
<p>We are grappling with this.</p>
<p>Post #9 is right–it’s time you let her go–even if that means she graduates with a degree in English.</p>
<p>So my original goal was to get leer to fill ort the FAFSA. World that be letting her go, or not? BTW, she did it within 24 hours of getting the letter. We we now waiting on the Stafford.</p>
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<p>Shrinkrap, how do you propose monitoring whether or not she goes to every class first semester? How is that enforceable?</p>
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<p>I used to think that my S was great at creative writing. Well, honestly, he is. I had him as the next JK Rowling in my head, did some searching for schools with creative writing programs, pictured him the writer in the attic. But guess what? HE found another interest – history. It doesn’t matter what I think. It matters what he thinks and what he wants to major in / do with his life.</p>
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<p>Don’t you think that’s the case with quite a few kids at Duke (or similar top schools)? They were all smart in their high schools, and now they’re nothing special in this new context?</p>
<p>“A $50K car is an expensive car; presumably you live a very nice lifestyle.”</p>
<p>It’s leased, but it’s nice. One of my H’s passions. D loves it, so I thought she could relate.</p>
<p>“I’m sorry, it doesn’t sit well with me, personally, that someone driving a $50K car is asking a child to borrow money.”</p>
<p>So you we not a fan of “skin in the same”?</p>
<p>“Shrinkwrap, do I recall she was struggling in a non-calc course?”</p>
<p>It was a calculus course, for kids who score less than 680 on the Math SAT.</p>
<p>She also struggled in a “rocks for jocks” science class, until her counselor said she wasn’t suited for Science and that she should drop it. She was not hearing it. Ended with a B.</p>
<p>“Shrinkrap, how do you propose monitoring whether or not she goes to every class first semester? How is that enforceable?”</p>
<p>Can’t , but I think it would work for us.</p>
<p>“Don’t you think that’s the case with quite a few kids at Duke (or similar top schools)? They were all smart in their high schools, and now they’re nothing special in this new context?”</p>
<p>Yes. All part of what we learned this year. Last year there was a discussion about getting into your reach. This is how it’s playing out for us.</p>
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<p>I keep going back to this, because it really stands out to me. It seems like you all view your daughter’s presence at Duke as being provisional in some way – that she was a “weak” admit. I wonder how much of that she feels or senses? And now you’re hot to trot to tell her to transfer to an easier school (or one you perceive as easier; I’m not from CA so I can’t comment on UC-Davis one way or the other). How do you think it feels when your parents don’t have confidence in you? </p>
<p>And what would it solve to transfer to UC-Davis and major in a science field if your D is leaning towards English? Either way, whose dreams are we talking about?</p>
<p>The fact that there is no money for the sibling is very unfortunate, but it sounds like you’re OK with there being no money for the sib IF she gets great grades at Duke. I’m sorry, there are a lot of mixed signals coming through.</p>
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<p>Your husband has passion for a $50K car, but not for funding a top 10 university unless his daughter majors in what HE wants. I think that’s an issue that needs to be explored and dealt with.</p>
<p>
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So you we not a fan of “skin in the game”?
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<p>Me personally? No, I have no intention of asking my kids to pay for their tuition, room, board or books. We have a two-professional-income household, we can afford it, and their “skin in the game” is the effort they put into studying.</p>
<p>"And now you’re hot to trot to tell her to transfer to an easier school "</p>
<p>So that is what the letter suggests? I that I’m hot to trot about this? Good to know.</p>
<p>How do you think it feels when your parents don’t have confidence in you?</p>
<p>Is there something in the letter that suggests that? Can you quote it? That was not my intention.</p>
<p>“Your husband has passion for a $50K car, but not for funding a top 10 university unless his daughter majors in what HE wants. I think that’s an issue that needs to be explored and dealt with.”</p>
<p>Why? Because you disagree, it’s an “issue”? Contrary to what you are suggesting, “counseling” is not about getting everybody to see see things the same way. It’s okay if parents see things differently, especially at this stage of the game.</p>
<p>“skin in the game” is the effort they put into studying."</p>
<p>That would be nice!</p>
<p>FIWW, it was painful when she returned to school after 1st semester. She didn’t want to go. I would like her to leave options if she feels that way again.</p>
<p>Shrink, let’s pretend you have a patient.</p>
<p>Patient- I can’t believe it. My Mom says that if I continue with Ballet, or horseback riding, or whatever, she’ll have to change jobs in order to pay for it. A job that she’ll hate. And yet, when I tell her that I don’t want to be an accountant, I’d be miserable, I want to be a poet, she tells me to suck it up.</p>
<p>You- well, I have no idea what you’d tell your patient, but I’m pretty sure you wouldn’t be telling her to shut up and learn how the tax code operates.</p>
<p>I think it’s great that you’ve determined that you love private practice and would be miserable working for an HMO for more money. And my guess is that when the dust settles, your D is going to find something SHE loves, which may entail giving up something more lucrative. So you have common ground here. The difference is that your D is 19 and you are a grownup. So you’ve already made your mistakes, taken your lumps, gone down some blind alleys and your D has not.</p>
<p>You can’t expect her to come out of adolesence a confident, successful adult if you deny her a couple of blind alleys and screwups. That’s how people learn. She got a D in college math- that’s a learning experience. She cut some classes and found she couldn’t coast like hs. that’s a learning experience.</p>
<p>Surely you didn’t emerge from med school without some humbling experiences? And didn’t it make you a better healer?</p>
<p>“The fact that there is no money for the sibling is very unfortunate, but it sounds like you’re OK with there being no money for the sib IF she gets great grades at Duke”</p>
<p>More like I’d be willing to take mother job to pay for private if I thought she was working as hard as I was. The grades just make it easier to transfer.</p>
<p>"Patient- I can’t believe it. My Mom says that if I continue with Ballet, or horseback riding, or whatever, she’ll have to change jobs in order to pay for it. "</p>
<p>I never said that to her! I’m saying that to you! Isn’t this where we come?</p>
<p>“And yet, when I tell her that I don’t want to be an accountant, I’d be miserable, I want to be a poet, she tells me to suck it up.”</p>
<p>I don’t tell people what to do, but I’d encourage her to explore how she might become a poet without sacrificing her independence. </p>
<p>"Surely you didn’t emerge from med school without some humbling experiences? And didn’t it make you a better healer? "</p>
<p>I’m sorry, but I’m not sure I understand where this is coming from. I think you are saying my letter is critical and punitive. Okay.</p>
<p>Aside from saying this in person, are you saying it is a mistake to share such expectations with a sophomore? It’s too late for the body of the letter, but not for the addendum. I added this when I realized we could provide a minor incentive to work on study skills she didn’t real need before. I can see now, why I was hesitant.</p>
<p>Hi all. Coming in a little late here.</p>
<p>I think Blossom made some excellent points.</p>
<p>For me, the financial and academic issues should be completely separate.</p>
<p>I would proceed this way: Does the student want to remain at Duke? Does Duke still want the student? The answer to both these questions seems to be yes.</p>
<p>Many high achieving students have to struggle at elite colleges. Both my kids have had cold water in their faces, and they have had to dig deeper. For both it involved a switch in major and discovering what they were really good at and what they were willing to exert themselves for. In both cases it was very different than what they thought they were going to college for.</p>
<p>In both cases it involved some panicky moments when each felt underqualified for his/her college and at sea in terms of interest. Both reached a point where they felt there was nothing they could major in. And then a light went off, and they began to focus, discover themselves and find their footing.</p>
<p>None of this would have happened at an easier school. So I am grateful for the struggle.</p>
<p>It’s hard to believe in them when we don’t feel they’re getting the grades we’d like to see. We worry about grad school and jobs and everything. I think unconditional support and a talk about how high the bar should be set is in order.</p>
<p>For my kids, I decided to encourage them to shoot for a 3.3 at graduation. I thought it doable, close to the average from their institutions and an acknowledgment that neither was the kind of academic super star who gets easy A’s at Ivy level schools.</p>
<p>DD graduated with a 3.37 and was accepted into a prestigious masters program. She is hoping this will compensate for her lack of a 3.6 when she applied to law school. Yes, it is an added expense and added stress, but not all paths are simple.</p>
<p>If the consensus is that the school is doable, the financial piece is separate.</p>
<p>I don’t think this should be a child’s responsibility to make this decision. I think it’s fine to say you’ll need X amount of loan since our circumstances have changed but I don’t think that should be tied to a school change.</p>
<p>Just my opinion.</p>
<p>FWIW: I will working way too much when I’d rather not for longer than I’d like to pay for my kids’ college, and now, my daughter’s masters. My choice.</p>
<p>Shrinkrap, </p>
<p>I’m more confused the more you write. First, you seem to say that your D didn’t do well --by your standards–because she cut classes. So, she has to promise to go to all of them next year. THEN you imply that she really worked HARD and she might want to transfer to an easier school.
Which is it?</p>
<p>You’re the shrink. I’m not, but after reading your responses to my posts and others, I’m left with the impression that what’s really at issue is the following: </p>
<p>Your financial situation isn’t as good as it used to be. You and your H think it would be worth the sacrifice if your D were majoring in science and was at the top of the class, but you resent having to sacrifice if she isn’t. The REASON she isn’t doesn’t seem to matter to you. Somethow, your D is expected to get great grades at Duke. If she doesn’t then it’s not “worth it” to you. </p>
<p>You write that you are “grappling” with the issue of whether it’s better to be bottom of the class at a top college or top of the class at a less selective one. Isn’t it a little late to be worrying about that now? I’ve never bought the idea that a kid’s stats predicted his place in the graduation class, but you seem to do so, so this is something that should have been considered before she applied to Duke…not now. </p>
<p>As for saying that you just wanted her to fill out the FAFSA–there sure seems a lot more in your letter than that! I’m totally confused because you say she has to borrow $4,000 for next year, in part because Aunt Lil died. But you previously said that she had agreed to contribute $3,500 per year to her education. And you also say that she worked this summer. Didn’t she earn anything towards that $3,500? Why did the # change? Because of your financial circumstances? If so, then tell her that. And why are you saying you’ll make her borrow more but pay the interest if she gets a certain gpa? If you can afford to pay the interest now, there’s no reason to make her borrow the extra money. </p>
<p>At the same time…you tell us that you and your H are unwilling to discuss the change in finances with your D. And that while your wants to tell your D that she can only go to Duke if she majors in a science, he’s agreed not to tell her that? </p>
<p>It’s no wonder that this girl can’t grapple with the issues that are bothering you and your H. You’re not telling her what’s bothering you!</p>
<p>Oh, yes, we always fill out the FAFSA and the CSS Profile. Our kids were not privy to all the numbers. They could be if they wanted to be, nothing is secret, but we file the papers and have greater access.</p>