A letter to my college sophomore...what do you think?

Parents' Social Lounge
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<p>First of all, for the love of G-d, psychiatrists and psychologists have perfect interpersonal lives! Why would they?</p>

<p>I think I get what Shrinkrap is saying–the money is a sacrifice, moreso now–and she and her H don’t feel like that is really getting through to D, something that is–debately showing–in her declining grades. My parents pay notably less than $50,000 (about 15% of that), and there is still the definite expectation from both me and them that I “live up” to that money. My school has similar requirements for renewing my scholarship, and I don’t think Shrinkrap’s letter is notably out of line.</p>

<p>Just a note: I have a friend who’s an AS major at UCD, and it’s pretty competitive/cutthroat.</p>

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<p>“. First, you seem to say that your D didn’t do well --by your standards–because she cut classes”</p>

<p>Where did I say that?</p>

<p>"THEN you imply that she really worked HARD and she might want to transfer to an easier school. "</p>

<p>Actually, I DON’T know how hard she worked, only she does. That’s why I say</p>

<p>"I want her to think about how hard she’s working, and where it’s getting her. "</p>

<p>If she ends up thinking “I worked very hard, and I got a D” and then " I’m ok with that", fine. If she thinks, “I didn’t work very hard, but I think if I did, I’d do better”, even better. If she thinks, “I didn’t want to work hard, and I didn’t, and I got a D, and I don’t like it”, I think it’s reasonable to suggest she could do this at a different school with better results, and feel better about it. For less money, so would I. Ok, maybe not at UCD, not in Animal Science. But we live 20 minutes away and know lots of kids and teachers there. Just maybe. Is that crazy?</p>

<p>“You and your H think it would be worth the sacrifice if your D were majoring in science and was at the top of the class, but you resent having to sacrifice if she isn’t.”</p>

<p>Resent is strong but yes, we would feel better about it.</p>

<p>“The REASON she isn’t doesn’t seem to matter to you.”</p>

<p>Absolutely false. Where did you get that? If one reason is not attending class, attending seems like a good experiment. She happened to share she was surprised she got a good grade in one class, as there was an explicit requirement regarding number of classes needed to be attended to get this grade. Believe it or not, I am NOT a critical person, but how simple is that?</p>

<p>“Some how, your D is expected to get great grades at Duke.” </p>

<p>Again, I didn’t know WHAT to expect. Lot’s of folks on CC suggested she would fail.</p>

<p>You write that you are “grappling” with the issue of whether it’s better to be bottom of the class at a top college or top of the class at a less selective one. Isn’t it a little late to be worrying about that now? I’ve never bought the idea that a kid’s stats predicted his place in the graduation class, but you seem to do so, so this is something that should have been considered before she applied to Duke…not now.</p>

<p>Actually I DID consider it, and read about it here on CC. Perhaps your opinion was included. Now I am sharing how it turned at for us.</p>

<p>“If she doesn’t then it’s not “worth it” to you.”</p>

<p>Trying to figure that out. Thanks for your input.</p>

<p>“At the same time…you tell us that you and your H are unwilling to discuss the change in finances with your D.”</p>

<p>I said H didn’t want to share specifics, i.e. this is the dollar mount we have today.'</p>

<p>. And you also say that she worked this summer. Didn’t she earn anything towards that $3,500? </p>

<p>Yes. About $750.00.</p>

<p>Why did the # change? Because of your financial circumstances? If so, then tell her that.</p>

<p>Good idea. Thought I alluded to it in the first part of the letter. How much would YOU say</p>

<p>"And why are you saying you’ll make her borrow more but pay the interest if she gets a certain gpa? If you can afford to pay the interest now, there’s no reason to make her borrow the extra money.</p>

<p>Ok, thanks. Where are you in the " skin in the some" debate?</p>

<p>This is really the question.</p>

<p>Does anyone think a 19 year old can benefit from the idea of trading working on study skills now, for a smaller loan payment in four years?</p>

<p>“And that while your wants to tell your D that she can only go to Duke if she majors in a science, he’s agreed not to tell her that?”</p>

<p>And he agreed not to make her attendance contingent on that.</p>

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<p>If your daughter decides that she wants to transfer to an easier program, the last thing she should do is major in animal science. Animal science major programs are full of preveterinary students, and the competition is gruesome because students have to have extremely high grades to get into veterinary school.</p>

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<p>Why is everyone so admitmant about students not taking out loans. Our Ds had to this year and did so without complaint. And they understand that dad and I shouldn’t have to suffer for their college education. And that we will be happy to help them pay off the loans, interest or whatever, so long as they are trying. </p>

<p>There is another thread on here about a kid who doesn’t seem to appreciate what his parents are doing to pay for is college and seems entitled. We have created a generation that feels entitled and a kick in the pants is often due. If the beneficiary of the good will is not using the investment wisely, its fine to say, hey, step up to the plate.</p>

<p>If I decide to take a 4000 dollar vacation with my husband, should the girls resent me because they have some college loans? Don’t think so. We pay quite a bit, and have earned that vacation. And it would never occur to them to feel mad at us for treating ourselves. And parents, we don’t need to be martyrs. We can have that car, and if our kid needs to take out a loan or two, they will survive. And maybe learn to appreciate what the parents are doing.</p>

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<p>“If your daughter decides that she wants to transfer to an easier program, the last thing she should do is major in animal science”</p>

<p>Okay. </p>

<p>In my letter I was careful to only say “Animal”, so as not to confuse “Animal Science” with “Animal Biology”, different majors offered at UCD. Last year she was admitted as an Animal Biology major, which seemed more for pre-vets. This summer, she loved on informal internship at UCD that seemed more like Animal Science.</p>

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<p>And yes, if we wanted to, we could somehow manage to pull off all the tuition without our Ds taking out loans. But should we have to give up all meals out, all magazines, all new shoes? Don’t think so. And if the OP thinks some insentive is needed, and she will reward D if D does better, which is not the same as punishing if she doesn’t, whatever works. You get a raise at work if you do well. D did not say she would expect tuition back if D did poorly, only that if D stepped up, she would help with the loan. how is that bad?</p>

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<p>Me and D just spoke. She’s holding the letter and says… " I like this. I think I WILL go to all my classes…at least first semester"… Talked about this a bit more. Turned out well.</p>

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<p>Perhaps it’s just me, but I actually relate to your H. I don’t see a problem evaluating the level of sacrifice a parent is willing to make on the basis of performance, field of study, and/or professional aspirations, potential, etc. </p>

<p>It makes sense to me that if your D is performing at a high level (certainly her best at the very least), and pursuing something particularly rich in promise, that the two of you would be willing to sacrifice more greatly. That’s not unfair or manipulative at all in my book. When resources becomed strained such is merely one of the realities – thinking about the value of certain things, and asking 'Is what we are getting out of this or that actually worth the costs?" </p>

<p>Heck, mediocrity can be had for much less than the cost of a Duke education, and certainly without having to make dramatic career changes. There’s nothing wrong with considering alternatives if you honestly believe your D is not taking advantage of the opportunities being given to her at great costs. Having her consider such things as well is the right thing to do. Otherwise, you stand the chance of really straining the relationship, making huge sacrifices while feeling D is not demonstrating commensurate appreciation by at least putting forth her best efforts. </p>

<p>When I read the letter it sounded very similar to some of the discussions I’ve had with my kids at various times. And guess what? Their world didn’t come to an end. They got the point and we all worked through the issues in a way that DW and I were able to keep our sanity, and the kids recalibrated priorities based on the options that worked best for them. But everyone did have to make choices. Expectations were set, measured, and revisited many times. Sometimes things ran their course as expected, sometimes there were dramatic changes. Keeping balance is a fluid art, not a static one – not always easy either. </p>

<p>I think the letter is fine.</p>

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<p>My brother got an A, a B, a C and a D his first year at Harvard. He ended up graduating with honors. I got ONE A my freshman year (in a notorious gut) and still managed to graduate magna cum laude with highest honors in my major. Luckily my parents were understanding with both of us, we chose our majors in the subjects we were best in (which weren’t necessarily where we had excelled in high school). Your letter left a really sour taste in my mouth, though to be honest say I couldn’t really even figure out what you wanted out of it. I know so many kids who were top math or science kids in high school who discover that college in those subjects is whole orders of magnitude more challenging. But scores are just scores, they have very little relationship with how any kids actually succeeds at college. Harvard has said that anyone with scores around 650 and up is perfectly capable of succeeding there, and plenty with lower scores have as well, though they may need a little more hand-holding.</p>

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<p>Shrinkrap: Glad it turned out well.</p>

<p>Ilovetoquilt22: I don’t necessarily disagree with you, but I can’t make myself do it. I can’t take that vacation in lieu of tuition. Maybe I am a martyr, but I really want to give my kids a college education free and clear.</p>

<p>Now that my D is going for her Masters, we are splitting the cost and she will have to take out loans.</p>

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<p>I think that it is reasonable to expect your daughter to meet some mutually agreed upon “fair” academic standard and a known consequence if she doesn’t meet it. Going to the school of her dreams is a privilege, not a right. $50,000 is a lot of money for a “vacation.”</p>

<p>On the other hand, your daughter should be able to choose the major that is right for her no matter which school she attends. She will be the one who will be in the job market, so it’s her consequence. Even if she transfers to a generally less competitive school, it doesn’t mean that science will get any easier. Science is hard at a lot of schools, because they want to weed out the premed kids. Premed students also have a tendency to be competitive and are academically focused everywhere. I’ve heard the statistic that the average college student changes her major three times, so she might have more exploration to do.</p>

<p>If you don’t like the idea of bribing your daughter… then don’t. She either meets your mutually agreed upon academic standard or she doesn’t, and meeting that standard to avoid the consequence should be enough motivation. You can always give her the money to pay off some or all of the loans when she graduates.</p>

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<p>The original letter was just a reflectio of things we’ve said in the past, along with lessons learned. The “bribe”/“incentive” was something that came to me after reading about how Staffords work. I much prefer incentives to punishments.</p>

<p>As it turns out, she felt good about finding a way to have her loan "subsidized’, and acknowledged she could use a little motivator. </p>

<p>And just to be clear, NO where did I say to her, or in my letter, that she needed to be a science major. It’s just something she mentions from time to time. she doesn’t have to pick a major until later this year. </p>

<p>I DO acknowledge that I may be wrong to assume that majoring in Science at Duke, is any more competitive than it is at UC Davis or Santa Barbara.</p>

<p>Thanks everyone, this has been quite helpful.</p>

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<p>Shrinkwrap – I had recalled that she was struggling in math from previous posts. I didn’t recall the exact level of the course, though. Should have checked – sorry.</p>

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<p>^Nice of you just to remember “us”!</p>

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<p>It happens after one has been around here for a while – your D is the same year as my S, so we’ve been on a lot of the same threads! :)</p>

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<p>First, let me say I didn’t read every line of every post so perhaps I’m being repetitive. I had one kid who graduated from UCLA, one from Yale and now one at a top LAC. I do not think that taking science at a UC is going to be easier than taking it at a demanding private school. When my UC son took chemistry, it was a huge hall and many students were weeded out who thought they were interested in science. I have heard this over and over again – that intro chemistry/science courses at some UCs can be brutal and many kids who thought they loved science get weeded out. My son at an LAC has taken two semesters of chemistry and done very well and enjoyed it because it’s small, the professor can tell if the students are following the material, etc. So I would just caution you not to think of a UC as being automatically easier in the sciences. Also, there is far less personal attention at a UC. It’s much easier to fall through the cracks and it’s much easier to skip class when you know that no one will notice you in a very large classroom. I would also point out that it’s normal to see a drop in grades in the freshman year. When I went to orientation at UCLA, I remember them telling parents to expect a drop in grades because college really is a big step up from high school and it takes time for a student to get his/her bearing. </p>

<p>I absolutely think that my DD, who went across the country, had much more to contend with than her brother who was close to home. It’s a big adjustment to live in another part of the country, be far from home and, for some kids, go from public school to being with students from the top prep schools in the country. It doesn’t sound like your daughter is failing - just transitioning and finding her footing. That said, my two kids in private colleges never missed class unless they had an extremely compelling reason. They understood we were making a bigger financial commitment than if they had gone to a UC and they put in the effort to get the most out of their classes. I think skipping class is unacceptable when parents are sacrificing, and that would be the one sticking point for me in terms of what you mentioned. Obviously, it is for you and your husband to decide what you can and cannot afford and how much you are willing to sacrifice and how much you expect her to contribute. Can she work during the summers or work a few hours a week on campus? If your practice is important to you, what can she contribute to help you feel satisfied professionally? I’m a psychotherapist and I have always observed that people work harder in therapy when it costs them something. Maybe if she’s invested in her education financially, she’ll be motivated to work hard. </p>

<p>One more thing, it may take her longer to graduate at a UC given what is going on with budget cuts, etc. There may be a hidden cost of extra time in school to get classes she needs, etc. I would imagine that most people at Duke graduate in four years – or that at least it’s doable. I’m unclear as to what you mean in terms of how she got to Duke, but I’m betting that if Duke admitted her, Duke believed she belonged there and could do the work.</p>

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<p>Not skipping classes is a good start, but there are other things your daughter can do as well if she finds that she is struggling in any of her courses this coming semester.</p>

<p>This page on academic resources from the Duke Web site might give her some ideas: [Academic</a> Resource Center](<a href=“http://web.duke.edu/arc/academic_skills/index.php]Academic”>http://web.duke.edu/arc/academic_skills/index.php)</p>

<p>Some people at CC would criticize me for posting that URL or for suggesting this to you. They believe that students should be on their own when it comes to finding resources for academic help at college. But in my experience, a lot of students don’t know where to go for help; college is a very different world from high school. Too many students just keep struggling in a course on their own even if their grade on the first exam or paper indicates that they are not doing well. </p>

<p>I think you should encourage your daughter to take advantage of all the academic resources that are available to her – professors’ office hours, TA office hours, help rooms, peer tutoring – whatever Duke offers. After all, these services are part of what you’re paying for!</p>

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<p>One thing that perplexes me is that she’s expected to have a great GPA but there still seems to be some pressure on her to take science. What if she were to take all English classes and get a 4.0? I sense your H still wouldn’t be pleased with that as it doesn’t have as much “promise” as science. Isn’t that a no win situation?</p>

<p>What grades DO you expect Duke students to get? Remember, everyone there was pretty much a straight A student in high school. They can’t all be straight A students in college. Don’t you think the vast majority of Duke students have lower (unweighted) GPAs at Duke than in high school? How could they not?</p>

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<p>I think many people have given very good advce. I especially agree with separating finance with academic. </p>

<p>Our D1 chose a 50000 school instead of a full ride school. She proposed she would pay for 10000 per year for schooling. She could do it through summer work or borrow it. As we are able to afford it, she is borrowing it from us. If we didn’t, I certainly wouldn’t have an issue for her to take out a loan. Both my H and I have agreed it would be our option to forgive the loans when she graduates if we were happy with her performance in college. </p>

<p>We told her before she started college that we expected her to maintain minimum 3.0. When she wanted to join a sorority, my H raised the bar to 3.5 to stay in her sorority. </p>

<p>She chose a very difficult major at her school, math. She was one of the top math students at her highly competitive/selective hs. If she studied in hs she could be sure to get A. Not so in college, she is struggling to get B+ in her major. In the last 2 years I’ve received many phone calls about how she is not as smart as other students. I think that’s norm. I want her to be at a place where she’ll be challenged. She works very hard, the result isn’t always what she’s expected, but it has given her confidence that she could pull it off. </p>

<p>My job is very stressful, but it is what’s allowing my kids to go to private school from k-12 and enabling us to pay for college. I have wished I could stay home more like other moms, but we couldn’t have done it with my H salary. He was very reluctant when I opted for private school for them, it was a long commitment. But we made the decision on how we want to spend our money, not the kids. I am not sure if they understood the magnitude of the amount of money we have spent for their education, but we don’t necessary expect them to when they were young. It is beginning to dawn on D1 since she started to work and classmates she has come to contact with. She said she hopes she would be able to do the same for her kids someday. </p>

<p>After long rambling… I think it’s reasonable to have kid to have some skin in the game. If you are pulling her out because of your own finance, say it as such. It is normal for kid to feel like a little fish in a big pond, it may even be good for her. I think you may need to let her know that you be lieve she could do it.</p>

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<p>Having a hard time typing on my iPhone.</p>