A letter to my college sophomore...what do you think?

Parent Cafe
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<p>My “issue” was not with the nice set of wheels per se – it was with the fact that the definition of “doing well enough to continue having us foot the bill” had moved. When the D set out for school, it was “don’t get on academic probation.” Now, she has a 2.98, and the parents are telling her “that’s not good enough, you should strongly consider transferring.” If the parents had expectations that “we will fund Duke if you have a 3.0+ GPA average, but we won’t if it’s below and we’ll expect you to transfer out at that point,” then those expectations should have been laid out. If the economy has changed such that funding Duke is no longer possible unless the D is just kicking butt and taking names at Duke, well, then, say that as well. No matter how much I might personally disagree with it, an honest “you’d better get a 3.5+ if you expect to stay at Duke on my dime” is at least more honest and upfront than sending mixed signals about how we’re proud of you, but we’re not sure if you’re trying your best, and if this is what your best is capable of, then you should really look at UCD where you might be at the top of your class unlike the subpar performance you’re turning in now. Before Shrinkrap says “Where did I say that?” that’s all in her letter in her very first post.</p>

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<p>A couple of points:</p>

<p>1) I think it is unlikely that your daughter could transfer to UC Davis, though there’s no harm in her putting in an application.</p>

<p>My son left his first school (private, prestigious east coast LAC) and attempted to transfer to UC Santa Cruz about 6 years ago, and was turned down; he had a 3.0 GPA. The problem is that the UC’s are obligated to give priority to admission to transfers from the community colleges – kids seeking transfer from out-of-state privates are way down the priority list. The UC’s are cutting back enrollment because of budgetary considerations… so my point is that you are positing a “choice” that I don’t think exists. (I’m no expert, and I don’t think its impossible for her to transfer… just not all that easy, especially with less-than-perfect GPA). It also depends on choice of major – it’s tough for a transfer student is seeking to get into an “impacted” major (meaning already crowded). My son ultimately ended up graduating from a CSU. </p>

<p>Also… I am a UC graduate and have always been a fan of the UC system, and I was somewhat disappointed when m kids wanted out-of-state private colleges – but with the current financial issues in California, I am actually glad that my daughter opted for a private college. My son was seeing devastating budget cuts at his CSU 2 years ago, and it can only be getting worse – whole departments were being cut, faculty laid off, etc. He would not be able to the get the same quality education there today that was available when he entered as a junior transfer 3 years ago – and that’s not saying much. </p>

<p>My point: you are assuming an alternative “option” that probably doesn’t exist. </p>

<p>2). You seem to be confusing YOUR needs/wants with your daughter’s needs/wants. It seems that the heart of the matter is that you don’t want to give up your private practice, but obviously your practice isn’t all that lucrative if it compares unfavorably to an HMO position. So the real problem is that you have fallen short of your own expectations for yourself: you can’t earn enough in private practice to make ends meet. </p>

<p>Your daughter fell short, but not by much: she messed up in a single class. That’s unfortunate, but pretty typical for a first year student. She certainly has an acceptable GPA, but its also pretty clear that she will do better as an English major than as a science major. She sounds like a pretty responsible person: she filled out her FAFSA within 24 hours after you asked her to (while you have yet to complete your end of the bargain); and she accepted the suggestion to get the loan without complaint, even responding very favorably to the parental-manipulation of an offer to pay interest in exchange for her agreement to attend classes regularly. </p>

<p>So… Dr. Shrinkwrap… I think that you are doing some projecting – in this case, your own self-doubts and frustrations are being projected on your daughter. </p>

<p>I’d say that you need to figure out how to get your own financial house in order. What your daughter does has absolutely nothing to do with it. If you feel resentful at the idea that you are working harder than her… well that is YOUR emotion… YOUR problem. (Heck, my daughter is doing great at college, but I feel resentful because she has spent 2 summers and a semester living and traveling in about 15 different countries, in Europe, Asia & the mideast… her life sure is a lot more fun and exciting than mine … I’m jealous, her dad is jealous, her brother is jealous … yes, the kid makes me proud, but I still feel resentful while I’m home picking up dog poop in the back yard & she’s traveling the world).</p>

<p>Anyway, I’m not trying to diss you. I just think that you will feel better in the long run if you accept responsibility for your own happiness, meaning that you focus on what you have to do to meet your financial obligations. This is really about you, not your daughter – and so you should be focusing your attention on figuring out if there is a way that you can improve or supplement the income you get from your private practice, rather than having to give it up entirely for the HMO paycheck. (And I’m pretty sure that this is pretty close to what you would tell your own patients: you can’t control what others do with their own lives, but you can exercise control over your own.)</p>

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<p>wow, that “picking up poop in the backyard” image really struck a nerve (not that we have a dog, but still). I appreciate the insight that we can easily project our own worries and disappointments about our lives onto our kids. A great reminder to make my life sans kids as exciting in my own way, as my D’s life, off to a new college in a new city!</p>

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<p>Pizzagirl, I don’t know of any parent making a personal sacrifice such as this who does not hope their student goes to school and kicks butt. We all hope for that. However, if it doesn’t happen, we, at the very least, still expect them to put forth their best effort. Why do you assume Shrinkwrap sent her D off to school with any less expectation than that? That’s pretty basic stuff. I give her and H the benefit of the doubt where that’s concerned because I understand such things to be a somewhat universal expectation between most parents and students in similar circumstances. In all the months leading up to her getting ready for school I have no problem understanding there was a mutual hope and expectation that being in the lower quartile would not be a desired outcome by either party. However, now that it is a reality, I think it’s completely fair to re-evaluate the circumstances, contemplate other variables, and consider if the new paradigm informed by a year of actual experience is commensurate with the relative cost of continuing support. That includes looking at the financial considerations. </p>

<p>Shrinkwrap didn’t say she was going to force D to transfer, but has smartly put it on the table as an option to convey the seriousness of the circumstances. She has also said quite clearly that her D at one point also wavered about remaining at Duke. Thus, the idea of transferring is not something her D is being blindsided about - sounds to me as if her D has also contemplated the possibility at some point. However, if it is to remain an option, the application has to be completed early. That doesn’t mean it will happen, it just means it’s one of a few options to address her daughter’s performance and committment to remaining at Duke. Again, nothing insidious or unfair about that. In fact, from what I read, it seems that whether she stays or goes is completely within her daughter’s control. You are reacting as if they are pulling the rug from underneath her completely unexpectedly. That doesn’t seem to be the case at all. </p>

<p>As a parent with finite means, I know I would do the same. In fact, I did do this. There is nothing wrong with it. Sure, I might give up my car, maybe change employment, potentially go to all kinds of great lengths if my student was fully taking advantage of the opportunity, performing well, and showing evidence of a real return on investment. But like I said, if the outcome looks to be mediocrity – for whatever reason – well, that can be had for a lot less, and I don’t think parents are obligated to sacrifice unconditionally whether every circumstance was previously considered beforehand or not.</p>

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LOL – its unglamorous… but I think that just goes with pet ownership. In any case, I ought to be resenting the dog, not the world-traveling daughter, … but the dog is soft and furry and loyal and very, very respectful and polite to me, so who’s complaining?</p>

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<p>I disagree with this. The question at hand is not purely regarding financial resources. It is about their allocation and subsequent value in return. This is not a seperate consideration from what her D does or does not do with the goods and services being paid for. Nor is it projecting. It’s a reality of life in general – basic economics. Her D has everything to do with whether or not it makes sense to continue funneling money into a Duke education.</p>

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The daughter has just barely under a B average (2.98 rounds up easily to 3.0) at an Ivy-caliber university. The daughter’s GPA was brought down by a D in class where grading is objective but possibly on a curve - that is, her grade would have largely depended on the number of right answers on quizzes and exams, but may have been balanced up or down depending on how well other student did on those same exams – thus largely divorced from questions such as how hard she worked in the class. </p>

<p>My daughter also has a tough time with math, and opted to take statistics to fill college requirements. She struggled tremendously throughout the class, even though she tried to get help with a study group and often stayed up late working on problems. When she went into the final exam she felt she would pass the class but had no idea of what her grade might be, and she came out with the same feeling. It ended up that she got an A. But for all I know the difference between my d. and Shrinkwrap’s might have been mostly luck: my daughter managed to avoid screwing up the math on her final exam, where it counted most, even though she had a solid record of screwing up the math on all her homework assignments. And maybe my daughter benefited from a more forgiving curve – she did better than her classmates, Shrinkwrap’s daughter did worse. But math is math - “trying harder” doesn’t always solve the problem. </p>

<p>Children are not investments where we make decisions based on “allocation and subsequent value in return” – and you can’t evaluate what is going to happen in 4 years of college based on the first year. The kid who shows up with all A’s their freshman year probably isn’t being challenged and may not be learning much – the kid with C’s may be gaining a lot more in terms of personal growth and learning, even though she has to struggle to keep up. My daughter has told me many times that has to work “unbelievably” hard at her school – I would foolish to evaluate the “return” on my investment in her education based on her GPA.</p>

<p>It happens that my daughter has done very well and that certainly makes me feel better about writing a check to the college. My son screwed up at the first college he attended, and I felt just sick about it. But my feelings have nothing to do with my bank account. I am still paying off a loan I took for my son’s freshman year, but I don’t resent the payment. He made mistakes, he ended up leaving that school, working, and shouldering the balance of his educational costs on his own. I made financial decisions that had a certain amount of risk entailed, for each of my kids in turn. But both were financial decisions in the form of a parental gift, not an investment.</p>

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<p>I agree with Calmom on the transfer issue. It might be useful to actually call the Admissions office at Davis and ask them if it’s even an option. Several years ago, my daughter and I visited Berkeley and spoke with someone in Admissions. He told us that every year they get calls from kids who chose East Coast schools and are now freezing and miserable and want to transfer to Cal. And he told us the answer is no.</p>

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<p>Not the main point here, but I have to add that Shrinkrap has a pretty inaccurate view of Davis and SB. True they are easier to get into than Duke, but that doesn’t mean they are easier once you are there. I agree with other posters that it is unlikely to get into either one with a mediocre GPA from out-of-state. But more than that the premise that her daughter would likely do better at these “easier” schools is just not true. The mean GPAs at SB and Davis are way-lower than those at Duke from the data I’ve seen, and at SB at least, that is largely due to severe grading in the sciences. Many of the engineering disciplines at SB appear to weed out the majority of the students that begin in them. </p>

<p>My son has some interest in applying to Duke, because it will likely be easier to do well in sciences there, as opposed to the UCs, which have some severe curves in science (and not a lot of support). So the notion of applying to SB or Davis to get a better science GPA is just misguided, IMHO.</p>

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<p>I’d also point out that the UC’s have HUGE lower-division science classes, and they do NOT have the type of support that a private university has. (I’m a UC Davis pre-vet washout myself, Chem 1A and a non-English-speaking TA did me in) – plus with budget cuts there will be larger sections, fewer TA’s available. It’s a sink-or-swim environment – definitely NOT an easier path for a science major.</p>

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<p>The OP and her D already acknowledge that she didn’t put forth her best effort. That is the very crux of the issue. </p>

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<p>Well, I guess mine are since that’s how I see it. Since I cannot do it all, and neither can they, I put resources behind them in accordance with where it’s most effective, where they seem to get the most benefit as it relates to their interests and talent. We try lots of things-- some work and some don’t. When something is not working we evaluate, and often, cut our losses and move on to something else. I don’t continue to stroke checks just because I can. I’m looking for what works, what benefits, and I’m measuring appreciation and interest by the effort they put into it. Yes, I’m looking for returns on an investment – returns for them. Otherwise, it’s a waste in my view. </p>

<p>D wanted to be a musician. I didn’t think she’d really stick with it. Therefore, I didn’t initially dump much money into her efforts. Ultimately, she proved me wrong, so I now I spend a small fortune supporting her musical interests. I’m fine with that. I now consider it a good use of money, and her very expensive instrument, lessons, and related expenses have been a great investment. It’s been a big part of her life, she enjoys it, plays all the time, and will likely earn a scholarship or two down the line. If the opposite were true, there’s no way I’d spend that kind of money on her for music. It would be overkill for someone with only a casual interest. </p>

<p>Same is true of their education. If they decide an elite education is not for them it wouldn’t upset me. However, I wouldn’t pay for it either. It would be a waste of resources. Average can be done much more cost effectively and in ways far less inconvenient. </p>

<p>To say there’s no relationship between effort, performance, and ultimate benefit with the costs/resources involved, is simply not a part of my world view. When I’m spending the money there is always a direct correlation. I’m not unreasonable about it, but yes, I expect their best efforts. </p>

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My son screwed up at the first college he attended, and I felt just sick about it.[1quote]</p>

<p>My point exactly.</p>

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<p>I agree, FLVADAD.</p>

<p>Back a ways in this thread, there were a couple of posts that supported the idea of skipping classes. Or at least they didn’t express shock at the kid’s “maybe I’ll attend class, maybe I won’t” attitude.</p>

<p>I’m unable to understand why someone would pay 2-3 times more for a private/elite education - based on the assumption that classes at such schools are so much better - and then shrug when the kid doesn’t bother to attend those classes. If I was paying a premium for such an education, I truly would expect an extraordinary effort on my kid’s part.</p>

<p>If I were such a student and brought home a D, I’d be bending over backwards to explain the extraordinary efforts I’d made to avoid that grade. I sure wouldn’t say “maybe I will attend class…” Huge red flag, IMO.</p>

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<p>Well, maybe the young woman was joking a bit.</p>

<p>As for shrugging when kids don’t attend class, hm. Is it because of grades or because of the education? There seems to be a lot of confusion here.</p>

<p>My D is so responsible that she has called me for permission on days when it was pouring asking if it was okay for her miss class that day.</p>

<p>For me, not each and every class session is sacred. We learn from our classmates, the atmosphere, the required readings, the essays written, the tests taken. In many instances the class sessions are the least important part of the equation. Sometimes they are.</p>

<p>I would not be pleased if either of my kids cut substantial numbers of classes, but once in a while? Sure.</p>

<p>As for the D, both of my kids failed one of their classes. One was ancient Greek and the other was upper level music theory. In fact both struggled and worked harder in these classes than in all their other classes put together. Because they were in rather lovely LAC’s they had the option of dropping the class even though they were carrying a subnormal load then. GPA’s were not affected. </p>

<p>My point? Stuff happens. I would not want to micromanage my kids’ lives, and overall, they are both doing very well at challenging schools.</p>

<p>They do not have the cum I had, but I am compulsively academic. I don’t expect it of them because that’s not who they are. They are still brilliant, hardworking people.</p>

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<p>shrinkrap-
Haven’t read the whole thread, but the “can you just whip us” line had me ROFL!
Didn’t realize there were so many of us psychologists and psychaitrists around here. I jsut shouted that lie of yours down to my son-- he cracked up!</p>

<p>OK-
I am ok with the letter idea as it gives you time to put your thoughts together and for her to digest it before reacting. My only recommendation-- put at the end of the letter something like:</p>

<p>“Dad and I wanted to give you an opportunity to read this and think about it a bit, but we’d like to sit down over dinner on Tuesday to chat further” (or something like that). Schedule a time to follow up-- don’t leave it open ended, with each of you wondering when the other is going to open the door to talk about it. Good luck.</p>

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<p>Well you seem to have completely missed MY point – which is that as a parent, I am able to separate <em>my</em> feelings from my relationship with my kids and THEIR college education. </p>

<p>The OP’s daughter ended up with a B average at the end of the year, which means that somewhere along the line she earned 2 A’s to counter that D. The kid wants to switch to be an English major; presumably her A’s were in the sort of classes that she would be taking if she made that switch. Among all the other posts, I get the sense that Shrinkwrap and her husband were kind of hoping for a science-major daughter and are not all that happy with the prospect of an English-major daughter – hence the talk about transferring.</p>

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<p>I didn’t miss your point. I just highlighted an aspect we agree upon. I would feel awful too. Which is why I am always concerned about value. I clearly understand that beyond feeling similarly that our responses would be likely be quite different. And by the way, I think it’s great that you can compartmentalize the way you describe. That’s great – for you. </p>

<p>We’ve chosen a different path that works for us extraordinarily well. It does not include seperating things. There are no sacred cows or segregated domains. No one gets a pass to do whatever without consequences, good or bad. And yes, that includes how money is spent, allocated, and indeed, invested in both, things and people. There is very little designated THEIRS versus OURS – we are all making sacrifices on one level or another, and thus, are accountable to eachother. It’s not about how I attach feelings to things. It’s about our mutual obligations to one another, which by the way, include putting forth our best efforts. </p>

<p>As far as the OP, I think she expressed her concerns and questions in a pretty straight forward way. I’m actually surprised how openly she’s written about this. As such, I don’t think all the added conjecture and questioning of motives is necessary.</p>

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<p>FLVADAD- straightforward???</p>

<p>I am all for raising kids to understand that actions have consequences… but trying to get a kid who has underperformed (in the parents mind, not based on the agreement) to switch to a cheaper school under the guise of “your academic performance will be better here” (a claim which has yet to be proven… not sure the kid can get in to said cheaper school and not sure kids performance will in fact be better) to alleviate parental angst over the financial sacrifices which they’ve decided are now no longer “worth it” seems to me manipulative in the extreme.</p>

<p>You want direct communication with your kid?</p>

<p>“Hey kid, we can’t afford Duke. Nobody’s fault, but the markets took a tumble, Aunt Lil died, house is no longer worth what it was a year ago so we can’t tap our line of credit even if we thought it was a prudent thing to do. So we need to look at cheaper options. We’d love your input on what’s been good at Duke, what’s been not so good, so we can help you make a solid decision about where to apply as a transfer student”.</p>

<p>All this business about the GPA, whether the kid is “worth” trading down from a great car to a merely snazzy car, why science majors are worth sacrificing for but English majors are not, why should the mom give up private practice to work at an HMO when she’d hate it, etc.— important factors? For sure. Was this the open and direct communication that the kid got senior year? Doesn’t sound like it. And in fact, the kid may well have opted for the cheaper option upfront if she’d known all the baggage that would have gone along with it. I know I would have…</p>

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<p>Well said, blossom. There’s nothing “straightforward” about the underlying unspoken agenda that science majors are more valuable, worthwhile and / or more worth spending on than English majors. Just because the dad isn’t expressing it … it still comes through, somehow. What happens when D ultimately says “I want to be an English major”?</p>

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<p>I probably should just let this go, but…in post #42 you reply to one of my earlier posts and say:</p>

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<p>I get it from your posts, of course! You say: </p>

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<p>Based on this, I assume you don’t know the reason for the D and that you have decided on the course of action you are going to take without finding out WHY your D got that D in math. I’d thought before that you knew that she hadn’t tried as hard as she should have. Now you seem to be saying you haven’t any idea of how hard she studied or whether cutting class was a reason for the D in math. </p>

<p>You’ve made a large change in your expectations regarding your D’s fin contribution. It was $3,500 per year. For next year, that’s jumped to $4,750–the $4,000 loan and $750 in earnings. While your letter to her does say it’s for fin reasons, you then switch gears and say you and your H will pay the interest if she gets a certain GPA. Thus, to me, this comes across as saying that at least part of the reason you’re expecting her to pay more is that she didn’t do as well as you expected–even though she in fact did BETTER than the expectation you conveyed to her, i.e., staying off academic probation. </p>

<p>You say this yourself in your letter; you admit that the only expectation you set last year was to stay off academic probation and imply that was too low an expectation. But then, you seem to say the goal is no Ds and a 3.0. The reason for this seems to be though so that she will be eligible for a transfer, which certainly seems to send a mixed message again. It seems as if getting a 3.0 won’t in fact be good enough for you and your H to think Duke is “worth it.” </p>

<p>If you and your H actually have a number in mind as to the GPA your D must have in order for you to definitely let her stay at Duke, I think you have an obligation to tell her what it is. You haven’t done that. </p>

<p>I’ve never been a fan of skin in the game, but I have no problem with parents who think it’s necessary. They know their kids better than I do. It’s just that I think that it’s unfair to mix your message on this front too. I think you are doing this, as explained above. </p>

<p>Your disappointment that your D isn’t a <em>star</em> at Duke is palpable. No matter what your head says, your gut hasn’t accepted the fact that the girl who got the prizes in middle school science had to struggle and work hard to get a B in “Rocks for Jocks.” I say this in part because your letter to her implied that she WOULD be top of the class at UCD or UCSB in science. That’s unrealistic. </p>

<p>I may be off base, but it seems to me that in your GUT you’d really RATHER believe that your D didn’t really try that hard and ended up at the 25th percentile of her class than believe that she tried very hard and ended up there. I can conceive of no other reason that you haven’t sat down and talked about WHY she got the D; that you don’t claim to KNOW how hard she studied --and apparently haven’t even asked her! </p>

<p>Again, the rules you set as a parent are up to you, of course. However, once again, the impression I get is that you and your H don’t think spending the money for Duke is worth it if your D doesn’t major in science and get at least about a 3.5. My impression is that just isn’t going to happen, no matter how hard your D tries. You and your H both need to accept that.</p>

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<p>Geez, you guys are too much. The OP didn’t start this thread saying she had all the answers or trying to get our buy in to some nefarious plot against her daughter. She came here to looking for feedback on a letter she was considering, but was clearly having some second thoughts about. She further shared some background information regarding various issues being contemplated and had some questions regarding. There were no lines drawn in the sand, and in fact, beyond the letter itself, she didn’t state any definitive course of action - only some things that may or may not be factors relative to her family’s unique set of circumstances. She came here to do some free thinking and maybe get some fresh perspectives that might be helpful.</p>

<p>What does she get in return? Personal accusations, judgments, people immediately leaping to some very harsh conclusions regarding her motives, and a level of criticism far beyond the context of her purpose in sharing this experience with us. She was not arguing or debating with you guys, but you somehow made it your mission to come to her daughters defense, try to paint the OP into a corner, and ultimately, chase her away from her own thread. And why wouldn’t she leave? You had her wasting her time trying to make clarifications and deflect baseless judgments about things she hasn’t even done or actually stated she was going to do. </p>

<p>She didn’t say she was forcing anyone to transfer. She merely said it was a consideration. And yes, part of that consideration has a lot to do with what D does with the opportunity at Duke. She didn’t say that tranferring was THE answer, but apparently the mere fact the thought even occurred is a big issue with some of you. Well, I think she has every right to think about it if she wants. If you don’t agree with the idea, just say so, but its not necessary to attack her over it or make her out to be some conniving soul trying to save a buck at her daughters expense. They have something showing she finished the year in the lowest quartile, and rightfully, are concerned about it. Indeed, the latter is further exacerbated considering the costs involved. She was absolutely clear about that, and to me it makes sense that a parent in that situation would consider whether or not a change in direction is warranted. Again, she didn’t say it was an absolute, just contemplating if a different approach might be in order. By the same token, she never said she was unwilling to do what was necessary to keep her daughter at Duke, but like several people on CC contemplate all the time, is reflecting on the relative value of doing so – much of which hinges on what her D is actually getting out her experience there. That’s not a crime, and I don’t read into it that she’s looking for some kind of end around based strictly on financial considerations as some of you are accusing. </p>

<p>What I see in this is that her D has every opportunity to remain where she is provided, 1) she really wants to, which sounds as if that was questionable at one point, 2) commits to working up to her full potential there, and 3) shoulders a relatively small part of the responsibility for it. In fact, the OP has expressed offering incentives to D to help motivate her in that specific direction. That’s not what someone looking for a backdoor exit does.</p>