A letter to my college sophomore...what do you think?

Parent Cafe
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<p>this thread is pretty amusing, shrinkwrap (in case you’re still tuned in). i only started reading page 1 today when I noticed it now comprises some 11 or 12 pages. maybe some kind of record. anyway, at this point usually the original poster has long since gotten off the train and the way is clear for a few professional cc parents (some or all of whose kids haven’t been in college for quite some time now) to carry on, often at great length. </p>

<p>your daughter sounds like a spoiled twit (sorry - i have one, too) who has major life lessons ahead. not because she got a d in math but because of her arrogant, cavalier, entitled attitude. “why are you still talking”?..why are you still spending 50 grand/year on her? </p>

<p>i would have written a letter, as well, rather than have a face-to-face, mainly because you don’t need the grief. just make your expectations more specific and firm. </p>

<p>i would let your husband do what he thinks needs to be done - he sounds tougher.</p>

<p>i wouldn’t suggest she transfer to ANY public school in california - the system is broken here</p>

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<p>As a student, I personally agree. While it does seem sort of “dirty” to be paying for grades, results are results. With your current financial situation it is unacceptable to pay 50k a year, in this economy no dobut, for a student to get a D in math regardless of the reasons for that D. If it is a strain to afford college (which it is even with good financial aid) there needs to be something to show for that strain. If OP’s daughter gets anymore D’s her postgrad opportunities may be shot, even from a top school. To those saying that fancy car should be worth less than a top education I agree as long as the student is learning something. If you get a D there’s probably not much learning going on.</p>

<p>I personally am thankful that I knew what my parents expectations were for me to meet during my freshman year. Actually made me feel less guilty for attending on a portion (because of FA) on their dime. They weren’t defined contract form like OP did, but a D in any class would have been out of the question.</p>

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<p>Do you have a sense as to what circumstances would make him say that?<br>
Does he believe that for her, good grades in math / science are doable and achievable even if she doesn’t have passion for the topics, if she just studies and applies herself? And if so, how does he think that will work when she’s in higher-level math / science courses, not just a calculus section for relatively low-scorers and a “rocks for jocks”?</p>

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<p>Toodleoo, my last child graduated from college a year ago. If that makes me a professional CC parent (whose life experiences are to be ignored, if I am interpreting your post correctly) than so be it.</p>

<p>My children all had different educational experiences at a variety of schools. Some times their experiences can be helpful for others- one of my kids switched majors about 8 times, graduated cum laude, had absolutely no professional aspirations whatsover and is a standout performer in a tough, competitive field, loving the travel, long hours, and all the stresses that go along with it. So when posters lament the sophomore with no direction they sometimes appreciate my own experiences- there are some kids who bob along and somehow find a passion midstream. Another of my kids knew exactly what life held in store- except it didn’t, and is now in grad school (the kid who swore it was the end of formal education the day he graduated from college) and by all accounts seems to have found himself. Top grad program in a field he loves; exceptional employment prospects even in a changing economy, etc.</p>

<p>So if you find our advice to be outdated-- oh well. It is easy to have a kid in college and feel like you will be supporting him/her into your '90’s. So it helps to hear from people… especially those whose kids did not do the pre-med, comp sci, accounting/nursing route… that a kid can flounder in college and still manage to get a career track job, with abundant opportunities for advancement. Especially if the kids degree is in one of those allegedly useless disciplines like Renaissance Studies or Comparative Literature or gasp-- English.</p>

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<p>The way I read the first few posts by the OP, dau got in by surprise (not sure what she meant by referencing “how” she got in. If the OP returns, could you clarify?). Sounds like they were well aware that in HS she had been (I am paraphrasing) the top of the middle, and now at Duke she might be the middle of the top. It is scary to go to a school where almost everybody is as smart as you are, and a lot are smarter. She would be in classes with kids who had taken more APs, had higher SATs, and who might just find the whole learning experience easier. Add to that the fact that she’d be on the other side of the country, and I dont think it was unreasonable to set a modest bar for her, recognizing the challenges she faced, as well as the normal adjustment of any freshman. Listen to the many posters here who said they or their kid had a tough freshman year. And it sounds like her dau had a tough first semester (dont know if the D in math was first or 2nd semester). To me, reading the OP again, the issue of addressing attendance implied that it (attending classes) could have been a contributory factor, tho the OP said if DD was doing her best, that was a separate issue. College is HARD. It is supposed to be. Duke is HARD. She knew it would be tough, and it was probably intimidationg.</p>

<p>I also think the “skin in the game” message was implied in the letter, and apparently DD rose to the issue and started filling out FA/loan forms.</p>

<p>I agree that there is no way of monitoring class attendance short of putting one of those GPS tracker things on your computer to track the location of her cellphone (no joke-- you can install a program and track where someones phone is). I guess her dau could theoretically have a friend take the phone to class for her (LOL, the phone attends class and records the lecture), but if she would put that much energy into being deceptive, then there would be another issue going on. When I set an incentive program up, I dont expect the person to be able to comply at 100% – that is a set up for failure (see-- should have had a psychologist set up the reward program, not a psychiatrist :wink: ), so I agree, the expectation for 100% class attendance needs to be adjusted, or changed. I’d suggest maybe a frequent status update on grades on tests, papers, etc.</p>

<p>As for the pre-med back-up, I took the comments in the OP about science programs and Animal programs in the CA schools to mean the dau had an interest already (besides, with 2 parents as physicians, she has been swimming in that gene pool and might have some science inclination). WRT orgo, many kids take it at a local college during the summer, where it is often (a) easier and (b) the only class they are taking at the time, and then get the credit transferred to their regular college. My s didnt consider that in part b/c he is a Chem major and also b/c he didnt want to take classes in the summer, but many do that, and perhaps her dau would go that route.</p>

<p>As for what motivates my kids?? That varies. Older s is extremely self motivated. Adding an external incentive turns the burners up too high for him, IMO. In contrast, younger s responds to that external “push”. For example, when he was in HS we “pushed” him to prep/study for the PSAT b/c we knew he was in striking range. Incentive: if he made NMSF he could drive dad’s cool convertible to school for a day. When we got the official word of his score, we greeted him at the door with dads car keys dangling from our hands. It was a special, fun moment, and cha-ching, he got $8k in scholarship money at his college. He is motivated by $$ to a degree. Chose a college that gave him a very generous addtional (full tuition) scholarship so he’d have much of the $$ we earmarked for his education for med/pharmacy/whatever grad school (only caveat - he cannot use the $$ to buy transportation-- no Corvette, no motorcycle. Its our standard joke). So the mantra in our house is “keep the scholarship”, and he rises to the challenge.</p>

<p>So I agree, the initial letter is not necessarily written as I would have written it, but the OP knows her dau better than we do.</p>

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<p>Perhaps it’s unspoken because it’s not her POV. She mentions her H as having this sentiment, but has not mentioned it to D. She has also not insisted D major in science. But you have a problem simply because they were hoping for it? Oh, the nerve of them.</p>

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<p>As a literature professor who values human communication, I do find the science or nothing attitude upsetting. Here I am not referring to the OP – just the attitude some scientists have.</p>

<p>The greatest scientists don’t feel that what.</p>

<p>FWIW: I can always earn a living. There just aren’t that many people who write well.</p>

<p>As for a D being unacceptable, sometimes it can’t be helped, even with the best effrorts of the student.</p>

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<p>^^^ agree 100%</p>

<p>Think critically. Write well. Live well.</p>

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<p>The H has not said it to the D … yet.
Where do I get this? The OP’s post

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<p>I personally don’t care for the idea of pushing a child to one major versus the other, but hey, my opinion’s worthless in this matter, because it ain’t my kid and it ain’t my money. What is problematic, IMO, isn’t so much that that’s how they feel. It’s the fact that it’s unspoken and yet it informs how they feel about the D’s college career to date, and if the OP’s post above is true, may come out in a moment of anger or dispute. </p>

<p>FLVADAD, no one on this thread is saying that the OP should be completely obligated to throw $50K at her D, or that she should “put up with” the D majoring in beer pong, and that the OP’s only response should be “thank you sir, may I have another.” Most of us are reacting to what we see as mixed messages being sent.</p>

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<p>I agree with both points mythmom. </p>

<p>As far as grades are concerend in this case, it doesn’t sound like this student did her best and that is the source of the disappointment. It’s not that she got a D per se’. It’s that she got a D because she didn’t put her best foot forward. I think those are two very different scenarios that drive very different responses.</p>

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<p>I agree, FLVADAD. How the OP positioned it, however, wasn’t
“I’m disappointed in you because you have a great opportunity here, that is not inconsequential to our family’s finances, and you screwed around and got a bad grade in something that we both know you’re fully capable of handling.”</p>

<p>The OP put it in the context of “You now have a 2.98 which is 25% percentile, bottom of the class – you’d best consider transferring to a place where you can be top of the class, UCD, etc.”</p>

<p>The first framing, to me, is about a moral lesson that needs to be imparted or reinforced: We try our reasonable best because that’s just the right thing. It doesn’t matter if you’re at comm college or Duke, whether you’re on full scholarship or the Gates family is paying your tuition … that’s just what you do.</p>

<p>If that’s indeed the moral lesson that needs to be reinforced in this case (and I don’t know, but in case it is), then the mother’s private practice and the brother’s money being gone and the fact that Duke is expensive and the specific GPA / percentile and whether UCD is an easier school are all irrelevant.</p>

<p>Since it wasn’t framed that way, it took on the tone of “you’ve disappointed me by only having a 2.98, that’s not good enough, and you should strongly consider transferring, here’s the skinny on UCD.” Well, if it’s truly a moral issue of D-screws-around-and-doesn’t-take-classwork-seriously, how does transferring to UCD solve that?</p>

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<p>Pizzagirl, I get that you have a real issue about parents preferring their student to choose a specific major, I really do. But there is a difference between hoping for something, thinking about it, even suggesting something, and actually trying to force it upon someone. They haven’t forced anything on their D. But as parents, we are all entitled to our feelings and hopes regarding our kids. I don’t fault anyone much for what they may be thinking to themselves, or to a group of strangers in an online forum – it’s what they do that matters most. In this case, D has yet to be penalized on the basis that she may prefer English. It was one consideration among many, not the central theme.</p>

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<p>^^^^Yes, I agree with that. Parents are human, after all.</p>

<p>My S has gone from a music major to a Classics major. I jokingly asked him if he was scouring the catalog for the least practical majors. With a twinkle in his eye, he said yes, yes he was.</p>

<p>Right now his plan is to be a Classics Professor. OK by me.</p>

<p>D was an American Studies major going for a masters in English in international law and then onto to law school.</p>

<p>We never know where they’ll end up.</p>

<p>I had no read expectations or hopes for them except that they find themselves and find something to do that connects to their core selves.</p>

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<p>Pizzagirl, you are also ignoring the fact that as recently as 8 months ago my D was quite distraught about going back to school, and telling me she thinks she wanted to transfer. Why do you keep ignoring that? SHE was the one bringing up transferring. Do I need to describe in detail our life over that last year? Well I’m not. I’m sure that would just be more “grist” for your evaluation.</p>

<p>Someone asked what I wished I had known. My first thought was, not to make yourself vulnerable on an internet forum.</p>

<p>But I also wanted to say there is nothing about Duke we don’t like, and I wouldn’t want anyone to think otherwise. </p>

<p>With regard to my H’s perspective. He and I have different parenting styles, but we respect what each of us bring. There are times when I’ve thought he was wrong, too critical, or demanding, and my kids have said “we can handle it”, or even need it. There have been threads here on cc comparing the outcome of kids of American parents to kids of immigrants that really make me wonder. </p>

<p>But that’s all I want to say for now. I’ve got patients waiting, and THEY seem to think I’m pretty good with kids!</p>

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<p>Perhaps the reason some are seeing “mixed messages” is precisely because there is not a singular concern. There are multiple concerns. I don’t know. I relate to the OP much differently because I’ve been in similar circumstances where there are several competing issues at work, some more important than others, some hinging on other possibilities or unknowns, all coupled with perhaps only some limited amount of experience to go on. I would think most of us could relate to that to some degree.</p>

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<p>Respectfully, FLVADAD, we don’t know whether the D tried and got that D…or not. That’s what’s most mind-boggling to me; that the mom has never asked the D to explain why she got a D. Hey, even if you don’t get the whole truth from your kid, you ought to get SOME idea. </p>

<p>In a post somewhere in this long thread, the OP says that only her D knows how much she studied. She also says in a discussion of the idea of transferring, that if her D did work hard and get a D, she should consider transferring to another, less competitive college where her efforts would yield better results. (I quote from the language she wrote in my post #139). </p>

<p>Now in post #147, Shrinkrap says that it really isn’t about the D! </p>

<p>I read SR’s posts the same way Pizzagirl does in post #171–I’m probably said it too often. However, this issue really isn’t going to be satisfactorily resolved unless Shrinkrap and her H come to grips with what the issue really is TO THEM. </p>

<p>I remain convinced that the real problem here is that SR and her H decided to let their D go to Duke and despite knowing in their heads that she was unlikely to be a <em>star</em> there, when they saw that 25th percentile mark, they feel that they made a bad decision. All the rest of this seems to be justification for that–and wholly irrelevant. </p>

<p>The D may be happy being a small fish in a big pond, but mom and dad don’t think it’s worth paying $50,000 a year for that experience. Whether or not it is, is up to them, of course. I just think that their expectations should have been conveyed to their D BEFORE she started college. </p>

<p>Anyway, I’ve beaten the horse way too much–and admit that. However, I did want to make ONE more point. I see NO evidence anywhere in this thread that Shrinkette is “a spoiled twit.” Far from it…</p>

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<p>I kind of wonder why this kid was even taking a calculus class. Is it required to fill general education requirements at Duke? Is it something she wanted to take on her own? Did a college advisor suggest it? Or did her parents encourage her to take the course, perhaps just because they thought that was a course everyone ought to take? </p>

<p>College students are human. If they find themselves in a class that they didn’t want in the first place and don’t enjoy… then their “best effort” might consist of trying to stay awake in class and doing their level best to submit homework assignments in on time. In other words, the “best effort” for one student may be another student’s bare minimum. (If Shrinkrap takes that HMO job she detests… will she put in her “best effort” every day of the week? Or will she spend her days counting the minutes until it is time for her to go home? Or something in between?). </p>

<p>I mean, I think its pretty clear that math is not this student’s strong point. If she was accepted to Duke with “Math & CR SAT’s in the 25th percentile (writing in the 75th)” – maybe a science major isn’t what the Duke admissions committee had in mind when the admitted her. My own daughter was in exact same boat with her SATs going into her college … but I assumed from the outset that she would not be pursuing any major that required math or science. </p>

<p>So is the problem really that the kid didn’t “do her best”? or more that she found herself in over her head in a class that found frustrating and exhausting?</p>

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<p>Shrinkrap, I sent you a PM.</p>

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<p>Actually, I think she makes it fairly clear that while math may not be her D’s primary forte’, she definitely did not put her best foot forward in the class. </p>

<p>Btw, when it comes to performance in math sometimes it’s hard to know what the outcome will be. I have a D who studied mightily and basically got low B’s and C’s in high school calculus. She hated it. I cringed when I found out she was going to jump into it again at the college level her Freshman year. She wanted to get her requirements out of the way early she said. I was thinking it was probably going to be a train wreck and braced myself accordingly. Silly me. She’s gotten nothing but straight A’s in math from that time to the present, and now she really enjoys it. I’ve also seen the opposite happen with others. Apparently, the person teaching it makes a pretty big difference sometimes.</p>

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<p>Okay, I just wanted to jump in here and say that I really don’t think it’s that a big of a deal that eight months ago she wanted to transfer. I know so many people (including me) who eight months ago were miserable and wanted to transfer schools. Not many of them actually went through with it and transferred. A few did, but most ended up happy with friends/extracurriculars/the school (which you said your daughter was happy with earlier in the thread, if I’m not mistaken?) and forgot about how miserable they were and how much they wanted to transfer in January/February.</p>