A Little Irritated...

College Majors Music Major
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<p>OK. For those that have not read my previous posts or just don't remember me, a little background. My daughter is a horn player who hopes to eventually attend Eastman for instrumental music education. She also has at least 5 other schools that she will probably audition for including Crane and Ithaca. That said, we have have very limited opportunities in our rural school / area for her to have extracurricular music activities. I have posted about this before but the short version is that the nearest youth symphony is a 2 hour drive and her music teachers have tried to find a private teacher for her but there is no one that teaches horn at her level within a few hour drive.</p>

<p>This is why I am irritated. She submitted a late audition tape for the NYSSSA Orchestra program and was rejected. No surprise, the live auditions were in January and she submitted her tape in mid-March. I happened to see the website for the program and contacted them about sending in a late audition tape. Now, a week ago, I was on the Eastman website and noticed that there was still time to apply for their Music Horizons summer program. It seemed like fate that I would see this a week before the deadline. So she has been rushing around for the last week getting a recommendation letter from her band instructor and looking for an etude to add to her existing audition tape from NYSSSA. Well, the application must be postmarked by April 15th and yesterday the band teacher told her she needs to go to the Jr High band instructor to get the etude. My dd said that he seemed a little put out that she gave him such short notice but HELLO he must have known about this program and we had to find it on our own. The biggest problem I am having though is that I can almost forgive him b/c he does tend to be scatterbrained but when they were discussing this the HS choral music teacher felt the need to eavesdrop and as soon as the band teacher left the room she turned to my daughter and said "You know, I really don't think you will make it into Eastman". How is that for support? What business is it of hers as she knows nothing about my daughter's horn talents. (It should be said that the band teacher told my dd that she is the most talented student he has ever had and this choral teacher was also a french horn student of his)<br>
I am so irritated as I cannot believe that a teacher could openly discourage a child from even trying. My dd and I both know that any kind of admission to Eastman is a longshot for her but I have always taught her to at least give everything a try b/c you can never know for sure if you would have made it or not. It was when my dd told me about this that I truly realized that we are on our own with this whole thing and that she and I will have to do everything for college admission, camps, audition repertiore etc. A good friend of mine whose daughter is a theater major said to me that my dd should be getting more support from her school music dept that they know about these things and should have at least asked my dd if she was interested.<br>
I don't know. This whole thing just makes me disappointed in the human race. I know some people will try to say that the woman was just being realistic w/ my dd but we know what her chances are and I don't think any child should ever be told they can't do something by a teacher.</p>

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<p>How frustrating for you! I agree that your D is in a tough spot, having no good horn teachers in the area, and no support at school. In your D's case I think there are more than usual reasons for seeking out summer camps. Your D needs to have teachers, mentors, and objective opinions outside your community. I hope she gets the etude done today, so you can get it in the mail tomorrow. </p>

<p>My S did have a good bit of "respect" from his school band directors, but I don't know that they would have known about many camps outside of the area where we lived. And I could regale you with stupid comments and situations we experienced at school, but I won't. Just know that what they are doing isn't that uncommon.</p>

<p>I suspect you may be dealing with a bit of jealousy on the part of the choral teacher. Who knows, maybe the teacher was rejected from there! As you say, it is a long shot to get into Eastman, so it will be very easy for her later to have "told you so." I agree; she is NOT in a position to be judging your D. Even if she HAS heard your D, her "expertise" from having once played horn, and majoring in a different musical area, is not enough to pass judgement.</p>

<p>When my S (also a horn player) was ready to apply to colleges, he had so many other contacts, he didn't use the HS band or orchestra teachers - or even the youth orchestra director - as references, because he didn't need to. If your D can get to a camp - any camp! - at this point, it will do her a world of good just to have other feedback. </p>

<p>I can't remember where you live. Some years back, when my S was in 8th grade, he was heavily recruited for Brevard summer camp (we didn't let him go - too young) because they didn't have enough horns. The program fills quickly with other instruments, and deadlines are long gone. I don't know how they're doing this year, but it they're short on horns, she may still have time. </p>

<p>Also, look at the Encore camps that are in various places around the country. In GA (where we lived then), UGA has a nice band camp, and I suspect it's not too late there. Check with colleges in your area, too.</p>

<p>I really do think she needs something, even if it's not the top level you would otherwise want, and even if it's only a week or two. If I remember correctly, money is an issue, but I think some of these places might help you out. </p>

<p>Are you familiar with the International Horn Society? <a href="http://www.hornsociety.org/%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.hornsociety.org/&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>This website has teacher listings among other things. They publish a magazine (4 per year I think) with a wealth of information for horn players. They have regional branches, that usually have their own mini-conferences every spring. The Northeast Horn Conference was in VT in March this year, for instance. They sponsor competitions - solo, low-horn, high-horn, etc. which are a great way to get audition experience and valuable feedback. </p>

<p>They also have information about various programs for horns. Click on news and info, and look at "Horn events", and also click on "Your Horn News" for other people's notices about events. Here are some I found.</p>

<p>TransAtlantic Horn Quartet Summer Seminar
International Women's Brass Conference
Barry Tuckwell Institute
Kendall Betts Horn Camp (which I've mentioned before)
Horn Master Classes with Gail Williams and David Krehbiel</p>

<p>Anyway, this website is well worth browsing. Obviously, it can't replace a good teacher, but it can help you fill in some of the gaps.</p>

<p>PM me if I can help in any way (as the mother of a little older horn student who's been through some of this already).</p>

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<p>"(It should be said that the band teacher told my dd that she is the most talented student he has ever had and this choral teacher was also a french horn student of his)...This whole thing just makes me disappointed in the human race. I know some people will try to say that the woman was just being realistic w/ my dd...". </p>

<p>this is not realism. it is jealousy. and mean-spiritedness. </p>

<p>children rise to the expectations placed upon them. and that is why your daughter will be successful no matter where she ends up. ignore the mean people of the world...there are far too many to waist your energy.</p>

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<p>What is the Eastman program like? Has anyone had personal experience attending there?</p>

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<p>The best revenge would be your D getting in so you can rub it in the Choral Director's face. Similar situation with my D and the school orchestra director who "has the brain of a duck, you know?" Our Orchestra director is the absolute antithesis of our very supportive band directors and was very cynical about the school D's applied. Heck she blows not bows her instrument...</p>

<p>When OD found out all the places D got in his comment was, "You got in those places?" D said it was sublime to see the disbelief in his face.</p>

<p>Just a word of wisdom. Quite often teachers at university summer programs ARE NOT the university faculty so check first. Obviously it depends on the instrument, university and year, but D went to NHSMI one year and clarinet/sax teachers had nothing to do with Northwestern. Many profs do summer stints at other places so if you're targeting a particular prof at a particluar school, you need to do some homework.</p>

<p>Here's another option, one that we didn't have to worry about at all since we have 3 youth symphonies within a 50 mi radius and a HS that really supports the arts in splendid fashion, but have you thought of going to Interochen or a similar school for camp and/or HS? Interlochen is damned expensive for either one, but D just adored the camp as opposed to midly tolerated NHSMI. Being with peers who share the same passion for their art makes a huge difference in a child's perception of themselves, their desire to improve their craft and their general well being.</p>

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<p>Momof3Stars,</p>

<p>Hang in there. You and your daughter will inevitably run into the occasional mean-spirited person who will try to discourage you. Take strength from the experience and use it as motivation.</p>

<p>Binx is the resident expert for horn, and she has pretty much said it all. The one thing I would add is that I would encourage your daughter to submit the tape she has to Music Horizons, even if the etude is not quite ready. If the playing on the rest of the pieces is solid and if they still need horn players, she may still have a very good chance.</p>

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<p>3 stars, and so they are! Waldenschool.org changed the course of my son's life. It's expensive, but they have scholarships. It may be too late for this year. This isn't a horn camp. The teachers are amazing and out of some of the top schools in the nation and the kids who attend are now at the top music schools and LACs including Harvard, MIT, Brown, Eastman, Oberlin, USC, Indiana (and of course Lawrence) etc. etc. and so forth. Summer programs can make a big difference because you make contacts. Look at it as an investment for your top student who needs a boost up being that you are off the beaten track. :)</p>

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<p>Sorry MomO, but I woke up with a headache and you won't get much sympathy from me. My D never got a bit of encouragement from the HS music teacher. Even when she was practicing for auditions, all she got was comments about putting in equivalent effort for the HS concerts and maybe she should set her sights lower. The only satisfaction came at the end of senior year, when he did the right thing and gave her the music award. None of the teacher's pets had put in equivalent effort or were going on in music. Even so she figured it must have hurt him to give her the award.</p>

<p>We live in a populated area but music instruction was not easy. For 2 years, my W had to arrange her work schedule in order to drive 2 1/2-3 hours picking up my D and getting her to the "local" youth orchestra researsals on Thursday nights. Later on I had the Saturday responsibilities. Every Saturday for 2 years I was up at 5:30 to get my D to the train for her 2+ hour commute to Manhattan School of Music. For concerts and major events, we all went into the city. I felt fortunate. There was always a lobby full of families and kids. Many families made long drives and spent every Saturday killing time, wandering around the city, but mainly just waiting in the lobby and cafeteria.</p>

<p>I think there are some life lessons in your vent. Don't expect anyone to help. When it comes to summer camps, you can expect to put in a lot of time with internet research and phone calls. No one else is to blame, if you are too late with this process. It will be the same with college selections and arranging auditions. You can plan on a major commitment for January through March of senior year. You will need to help with the schedules, travel arrangements and provide the support for your D. You won't get any help from the HS. In fact you will almost certainly need to visit the HS administrators and teachers to resolve the issue of all the missed school work and classes.</p>

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<p>Problems with HS band directors, etc. seems to be the norm.</p>

<p>Mean spirited comments are never good, but being discouraging is not a bad thing in general. Its like a dose of castor oil in the old days. If your tough enough and good enough discouragment just makes you better and if your not you should probably quit anyway.</p>

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<p>Had another thought -- Are there any good horn teachers even a couple hours away? (Who coaches the youth symphony horn section, for example?) Call them and see if they'll give monthly lessons! When I was looking for a teacher for my S, I called a symphony member to ask for recommendations. He offered to teach my S, and I said I didn't think I could afford weekly lessons with him - would he consider bi-weekly. He said he preferred 2-3 weeks between lessons. It often ended up being 4-5 weeks, due to scheduling conflicts. It was great. Gave S time to really work on things between lessons. And definitely cut the cost.</p>

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<p>Binx- Love your idea about monthly horn lessons!! Had thought of that myself and after I came to the realization this morning that we are completely on our own in this I decided to arrange for my daughter to go to the upcoming auditions for the Youth Symphony that is 2 hours away. We will have to bite the bullet on that one and give up our Sundays if she gets in. At least after the auditions we will have a better undertstanding of her skill level and possible connections for private lessons even if she doesn't make it.</p>

<p>To everyone else (especially Binx): I could have cried right here at my desk when I read all of the supportive messages you guys have left. When I get home tonight I am going to show my daughter all of them so that she knows that this is not an uncommon thing and that she does not have to be ashamed of her goals. I have decided now we HAVE to become extremely proactive in order for her to have the best chance to be everything she can be. Edad, I am not at all offended by your lack of sympathy. In fact, I take all honest remarks to heart with the understanding that everyone here is unbiased and knowledgeable. I have appreciated every ounce of information I have received from this site. And to those who said that success will be her best revenge it is true!! I have just today contacted the Eastman admissions office requesting any information or guidance they may be able to give in order to beef up her resume. I don't know if they will offer help but as I said you can't not try b/c you never know.</p>

<p>Binx, again, you are a gem and thank goodness I found this board I need to review all of the things you wrote but I will definitely consider everything as I know you must have worked very hard to put all that info into words. I have mentioned your S the horn player to my daughter many times and the horn camp you have mentioned is on our next year list of places to apply. Thanks again. </p>

<p>Oh, and I am located in Central/Northern NY state about 2 hours from Syracuse which is where the nearest Youth Symphony is located.</p>

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<p>Don't know what others will say but "beefing up a resume" is not of much if any value from everyone I have spoken with.</p>

<p>Youth orchestra is good for getting an idea of what playing in a quality orchestra is about if your child's experience is limited. Also helps increase the number of quality pieces they have played. Also is a shock to some who think they are great players because they are first chairs at their HS for years and they dont make Youth Orchestra or are a lower chair than expected. For others they make it and find out they are bored and quit. A year or two of youth orchestra can be good experience. Not sure if being in it for several years improves playing or ones audition chances significantly.</p>

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<p>Check out the Luzerne summer music camp. As of last week, they still had horn openings. <a href="http://www.luzernemusic.org/%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.luzernemusic.org/&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

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<p>MomO, sorry. My headache did not help my mood today. I really do have emphathy for your travails. I also think it is real important to realize that our kids need a lot of individual initiative - and our support - to succeed with music.</p>

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<p>Despite his headache, edad brings up some excellent points. You have to be self-reliant and proactive throughout this process. January through March of senior year will be very hectic, so expect to provide a lot of support in that period. Don't count on a lot of help from anyone, but take it gratefully when it is offered.</p>

<p>Daughter happened to have a wonderful orchestra director at school. He would frequently but gently nudge us in the direction of looking for a nice instrument for her, finding the best private teachers and summer programs, and applying to the best schools. Once, when daughter was caught in the midst of a power struggle between the directors of her Youth Symphony (Carnegie Hall concert) and the school Jazz ensemble (mandatory rehearsal), he intervened on her behalf and covered her part at the rehearsal on his own time. He also wrote recommendations for about six schools and delivered them on time.</p>

<p>We also had a very efficient guidance counselor who knew his business and knew when to stay out of the way on musical matters.</p>

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<p>Yes, it has occurred to me more and more lately that we should expect no support on this. It just irritates me that as music educators you would think that they would be motivators as well but are very complacent. I am not really upset w/ the band instructor, he is close to retirement and probably assumes that we already know a lot. The choral instructors comments did upset me a lot. Teachers should encourage not discourage.</p>

<p>I am well aware of the audition issues that we will face in senior year and I think am as prepared as a newbie can be. I think it was BassDad that posted the thread about having made a spread sheet of audition requirements for each school the summer before Jr year. We will definitely do that and if someone could post theirs as an attachment so I have a template I would be so grateful.<br>
So far, on the internet U of R/Eastman looks great to my dd. We are planning fall trips to Eastman, Ithaca, and Crane at least. Over the summer we will possibly visit other, closer schools. I know she has the grades and scholastic record for U of R and if she still really loves it after the visit she may just go there for a bachelors in history or english and, if she can, take some music classes through Eastman on the side. We discussed this option at length last night as the choral teachers comments really kind of bugged us. No matter what, in the end it is all about what my daughter wants. It is just hard, some people assume you are born knowing what to do. I may sound ignorant or it may seem that we are not proactive or we are unmotivated but let's face it. I have 2 other children and a husband who runs a full time (and I mean 7 days a week) business so that we can give our children all of the advantages we never had. I work full time mainly b/c of the health insurance. We are not poor but we are certainly middle class, I mean it was a big deal for us to buy her a double horn in 6th grade. All of the other kids in her school borrow from the school and usually cannot get into a double horn until 9th grade. I am not saying cry for me but it is exhausting trying to figure out everything and basically we have only been applying for camps that are in NY state and offer some sort of scholarships. She has worked so hard for so long and to have someone she has actually looked up to treat her that way was quite an eye opener. Sorry, still feeling like venting...I don't mean to turn this board into my soap opera. I am not looking for sympathy at all. I just need to talk to people who can identify a little I guess.</p>

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<p>Any comments on summer campus visits? We were considering do that as well and everyone is telling us you wont get a good picture unless school is in full session.</p>

<p>Momof3Stars consider yourself fortunate that your daughter did not get that type of comment until her junior year. By then she probably had a pretty good idea of her talent and was more mature and confident. Often that can happen as early as middle school.</p>

<p>Our drive to Youth Orchestra is an hour and half and too far to go home so you end up finding something to do while they rehearse. Oh the price parents pay for their kids. So I have empathy for your soon to start 2 hour drive. Especially everytime I stop at the gas station.</p>

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<p>Summer campus visits are fine, but you probably won't get any time to have a lesson or meet with potential Studio professors so you're almost guaranteed a second visit when school is in session. Additionally, there is no chance to attend any student ensemble or solo concerts which also helps with the decision. For all intents and purposes, a summer visit is equivalent to an internet virtual tour....</p>

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<p>Sorry if my last post seemed a bit harsh. You are certainly entitled to vent a bit after the experience you described. The choir teacher was unquestionably out of line. Those of us who have been through this before, particularly those of us who are musicians ourselves, know that this kind of thing happens a lot. A performer has got to learn to handle it without getting too upset, or they will not last very long in the profession.</p>

<p>As for attachments, I have never seen one on CC. I don't think they are permitted.</p>

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<p>I think I was definitely way more upset over this than my daughter was. I definitely took more offense than she did. She was just upset at the absolute gall of this woman.
But this has inspired me. So far today, I have used Hornplayer.net (thanks Binx) to find and contact a private teacher (2 hour drive) via email about lessons and also have left a message w/ the Youth Symphony in the same city to arrange an appointment during their open auditions.<br>
As soon as I get the spreadsheet of audition requirements set up I will go about getting the sheet music myself so that DD has plenty of time to look it over and a whole 1 and a half to prepare for college auditions and she will also have some things prepared for camp auditions next year. Thanks again</p>