<p>Even though your intention is only to be supportive and protective, and while your participation would be necessary for any facillitating logistics, your daughter needs to decide for herself if she cares enough about all of this to track down the teachers, repertory, audition requirements, etc. If you do it for her, she will not have to decide whether it is worth her effort. We look at their lives, how busy they are, and it is so easy for us to track this stuff down, but at the end of the process, everyone gets caught up in it, and there is no sense of whose motivation got them there. Beware. Good luck.....sorry if my comments are harsh....they are offered with concern and support for the very difficult role of parenting a young musician.</p>
<p>ASW - My son is graduating from Eastman this spring. I am happy to share our experiences, but probably on a different thread or through private message.</p>
<p>Momof3stars: Sorry to hear of your frustrations. It is difficult. That is why we hang out on this board - because there is a wealth of experience here that is difficult to find elsewhere. I tease my cellist son that when they make a movie about his life, my credit will read - "Woman in car". In addition to youth orchestra, he played in a string quartet with a weekly coaching and 2 school ensembles. His sophmore and junior years his teacher was 70 miles away. In summer of his senior year his teacher left the area and the new one was 120 miles away. But there was no turning back and my husband and I regret none of it. We just got back from his senior recital as Eastman and his growth as a musician, performer and a person has been tremendous over the 4 years he has been there. </p>
<p>As far as the comment from the choral teacher, others have commented on that. I would like to point out that if your daughter's goal is Music Ed at Eastman, it is a bit easier to get admitted than if she auditions for performance. We have a young man in our area who dreamed of going to Eastman for years. He was a percussionist. His goal was to be a music teacher and he had developed his own studio over the years teaching younger kids. He was good, but not at the top of the heap. He never did manage to audition into our top youth orchestra, only the 2 of the 4 groups. However, he did get admitted to Eastman in music ed and loves it there. It was likely a long shot but he convinced them. Have a good back up plan but help your daughter go for her dreams as well.</p>
<p>I am sorry that your DD had such an experience with her music teacher.</p>
<p>We have been extraordinarily lucky to live in a music rich city and to have a well funded and supported arts department at our HS. DS's music directors at school are also very supportive of him, but in the last analysis, all of the legwork for summer programs, ensembles, and now college research, comes from US, not from the directors. We run things by them; they rarely come to DS, telling him of audition opportunities, etc. His private teachers are more forthcoming, but I figure the band and orchestra directors are each dealing with 100 kids, and the concerns of my individual child are not top on their list.</p>
<p>So, we will figure most of this out on our own (with help from CC!). All of the audition requirements are listed on-line for the individual colleges, and DS has printed them out to begin prep shortly. I think if we waited for anyone at school to tell us what to do, he might be at community college instead of the kind of music school he dreams of.</p>
<p>That is a long winded way of saying that while you have more challenges with your location, in the end, it is the kid and his family who have to figure most of it out on their own.</p>
<p>Our hs band director was very supportive for DS the musician for all things DS needed. However, WE were the ones who researched summer programs. The band director was terrific regarding honors festivals, competitions for hs students and the like. But he was not our summer program broker....nor would I have expected him to be. In fact, the first year DS went to N E Music Camp, he almost missed the deadline for applications. The teachers did scurry around and get the information to the camp in time. After that, we were very alert to the very early deadlines some of these programs have, especially on the more plentiful instruments. The HS director excused both of my kids from school events due to music commitment for youth orchestra and an auditioned children's choir they were in. He was very understanding about their music studies outside of school. He was also a terrific help with college letters and such. Now the GC, on the other hand, was basically useless with the music end of things, but I didn't expect her to be helpful. She simply knew nothing about the application process for musicians, and actually told my son not to bother to apply to Boston University because he would not get accepted. That is where he is now a junior. But how would she have known that the audition carried so much weight? She deals with academics.</p>
<p>Momof3:
I just looked at the description of the Horizons camp and it looks very good. They list the staff as "members of Eastmans Community Music School faculty and members of the Rochester Philharmonic Orchestra." That will probably not be collegiate staff, but they will be good. The CMS has great teachers, many of whom work part-time (adjunct?) at Eastman and of course the RPO players are top-notch. If they can give you names of the possible horn teachers who might be there PM them to me and I'll see if I know them.</p>
<p>The Eastman summer camps are GREAT by the way, especially the jazz ones (true confessions - that's the only one we've done).</p>
<p>My kids have done all their music stuff through Eastman Community (we live in Roch). We are SO lucky here. It is one great music town. By the way, there are plenty of kids who come from Syracuse and Buffalo to participate in lessons and ensembles here. And they talk about soccer moms! Picture driving that route a couple times a week (in the winter!) to get your kid to music lessons!</p>
<p>I've also sent you a PM.</p>
<p>Weenie, I sent you a PM. Hope that's OK, and thanks in advance.</p>
<p>I want to comment on Lorelei's post.</p>
<p>If you go over to the Parent Forum, you will see a thread discussing how involved parents should be in the application process. While there is general agreement that parents should not be picking the college or writing the essay, beyond that there are as many levels of involvement as there are kids. Family dynamics, personalities, and a host of other things come into play. I think the jury is out on the "right" answer. There seem to be a number of kids succeeding "despite" their parents! :)</p>
<p>I stay away from that thread, because I know I would be considered over involved. This is despite the fact that I live 3000 miles away from my kid. But I want to share my story here, as one who chose to be heavily involved. </p>
<p>I have made it my business to learn a lot about the horn. I have a bunch of links in my "Favorites" for auditions, orchestras, summer programs, horn discussion boards.... I "regularly" (ie several times a year) send him links for a new competition I found, or a possible summer program, or what have you. </p>
<p>Does this mean S isn't interested enough? No! Last week he sent ME a link for a competition in Italy, asking if he could go. Last month he found a competition in VT - registered for the competition, and made his own hotel and flight arrangements, and paid for them himself. (And won). He is 20. This has been a gradual process for him, and he would not have been able to do this when he was younger. This is the child who took a wrong train on the other side of Germany, then once he was on the right one, fell asleep and missed his stop! Talent and other life skills are not always directly correlated. ;)</p>
<p>There are some who think the best way to learn to swim is to jump in and sink or... I'm more of the type to put a gentle hand under the belly.</p>
<p>In his case, I think he interprets this as evidence his entire family is in his corner, 100% behind his dream. He can discuss practically any aspect of his career choice with us and get reasonably intelligent feedback. We're his cheerleaders, his agents, his fan club. Not his audience, unfortunately, though I wish we could be.</p>
<p>In his middle and high school years, once he knew he was going to be a horn player, we became proactive about finding him appropriate teachers, activities, etc. Once, when he had a terrific audition that resulted in a less than terrific result, we saw it affect him negatively. Does this mean he should abandon music all together? For awhile, I wondered. I even talked with his teacher about it (who was ready to crucify me for even thinking it.) Instead, I set about finding more auditions and competitions for him, to restore his confidence. </p>
<p>As he grew older, he took over many decisions himself. It was HIS decision to drop soccer in the hopes of making Youth Orchestra. It was HIS decision to not apply to a safety. We have put limits on him as necessary, based on his maturity and/or our finances. We bought his first horn, in 8th grade (he used a school's till then), and his second horn in 11th grade. We told him that was the last one we were buying, so he has worked hard to earn enough to buy his newest horn himself. (Fortunately he's not a string player!)</p>
<p>We cannot practice, or audition, for him. We can't determine his interests or his passion or his talent. If we can make other things easier for him, we are happy to do so.</p>
<p>This is a rambling post, but the short version is: Different strokes for different folks. Lorelei is several years ahead of us, as her D is out there (actually, here :) ) pursuing her passion, and there is wisdom in her approach. In a few years perhaps I'll be in a better position to re-evaluate what I did right or wrong. In the meantime, I suggest you go with your gut and hope for the best. </p>
<p>(FYI: I'll be away for a week. I'll catch up when I return! Have fun. Play nice. :) )</p>
<p>I think most of us music parents would qualify as being grossly overinvolved.</p>
<p>The involvement usually begins at an early age and includes finding teachers and driving our kids to and from lessons. Soon we become involved in finding more advanced teachers and performance groups - - and, of course, more driving. Soon we are buying instruments, accessories, books, and sheet music. Then there are summer camps with more costs and more driving. Soon our summer vacations are centered around music camps. As college approaches, there are all sorts of decisions to be made starting with the basic decision about continuing with a music education or opting for a more practical career. Most of us cannot help but be involved. For those of us without musical ability, there are doubts. We have heard years of torturous practice and can't assess our kid's potential. (By the way, if someone in music education told me or my kid that they were overshooting their abilities, I would be concerned and not just irritated.) Discussions proceed to college selection, applications, auditions and stress. After endless months, there is a final outcome, which usually includes years of hefty tuition payments.</p>
<p>Yup, music parents are overinvolved. I would also add that our music kids are very high maintenance.</p>
<p>LOL Edad! I actually responded days back to the parent post about involvement in the process (to which Binx refers), from the editing of essay standpoint. I do think some parents practically write that puppy for their kids, which IMO, is a mistake.</p>
<p>But, putting on my music mother hat, and reading these last few posts, just made me LOL, since we music parents have an altogether different breed of overinvolved! My family's days, weeks, months and vacations are all centered around DS's lesson, rehearsal and performance schedule! </p>
<p>So, now I am humbled into accepting my overinvolved status, a position I didn't really think I had!</p>
<p>BTW, I have only been on this forum a month, and I have already learned so much from you seasoned parents. Thank you so much for so readily sharing your advice and experience, which I will continue to soak up (as my son is only a Sophomore still, and we are not even deep in this process yet!).</p>
<p>Phew!! That is a lot of posts!!!<br>
UPDATE: Things are looking better today. My DD received a beautiful letter of recommendation from her HS Band teacher and he extolled not only her musical capabilities but leadership skills and high level of responsibility. It was well above and beyond what he would have needed to say to get the job done. She also had a long chat with her Jr High Band teacher (he has a daughter who graduated from Eastman) and he told her that he knows without a doubt that she is both musically and academically good enough to get in but forewarned her that (as is often mentioned here) the audition is crucial and 100 people could be trying out for only a few French Horn spots. Other than that he was extremely encouraging (always has been a big fan of hers) and they also discussed other colleges and which others would be good schools for her.</p>
<p>Also, I heard back from the horn teacher I contacted and she strongly recommended the youth symphony I spoke about and we are also going to try and schedule monthly lessons with her in the future.</p>
<p>Thanks again everyone!!</p>
<p>How involved have private teachers been in giving guidance/direction? Is it typical for them to recommend summer music programs, colleges, etc.? Have they made phone calls to help a student get a lesson with a professor or player that they know?</p>
<p>Our D has a teacher who is pretty uninvolved in these ways, but has friends on other instruments whose teachers are very proactive in setting things up, giving info about opportunities, etc. Fortunately, they share their information with our D so she can find out about competitions, what they are doing to get ready for college auditions, etc.</p>
<p>Momof3Stars - It's great that things are looking up! Good horn players are in short supply where we live and it sounds like you've got a good plan to help your D get where she needs to be to achieve her goals.</p>
<p>Since I can't post the spreadsheet I used for MomOf3Stars, I will describe it.</p>
<p>In the first column, I had a blank cell followed by the following entries</p>
<p>Application
Audition Request
Interview Request
Teacher Recommendation
Counsellor Recommendation
High School Transcript
BU Transcript (1)
SAT Scores
Interview
First Semester Grades
Second Semester Grades
Final Grades
Audition Screening CD
Audition Dates
Audition Requirements (2)
Financial Aid Application
CSS/Profile
FAFSA
Business Report (3)
Teacher Selection Form
Acceptance Form</p>
<p>(1) Daughter had attended Tanglewood and hence had a transcript from Boston University showing a few credits. It turns out that these are not particularly useful for music majors not attending BU.</p>
<p>(2) We used a key to fit audition requirements in the cells of this row. That key was:
A1 - two octave scales, major/minor/arpeggio, E to A
A2 - two octave scales, major/minor/arpeggio, all keys
A3 - three octave Bb scale, major/minor/arpeggio
A4 - three octave scales, major/minor/arpeggio, choose two
B - slow movement from a sonata or concerto
C - fast movement from a sonata or concerto
D - contrasting movements of a Baroque sonata
E - first two movements of a concerto, with cadenza
F - Simandl etude of applicant's choice
G - solo of applicant's choice
H1 - one orchestral excerpt (Beethoven 5)
H2 - two orchestral excerpts (H1 + Mozart 40)
H3 - three orchestral excerpts (H2 + Verdi Othello)
A typical cell entry would be something like A3EGH2. In addition, we used font color red for anything that needed to be memorized.</p>
<p>(3) We own a small business and had to submit additional paperwork for it as part of the financial aid process.</p>
<p>Then, across the top row, we put the name of each school. Most of the cells in the resulting matrix contained dates. At the beginning, they were all the dates when the corresponding item was due. When they were completed, the entry was changed to the completion date and the cell background color was changed from white to light grey. Audition Requirements used the key described above. Audition dates started out with multiple entries representing all possible dates, then was changed to a single date and time when the audition was scheduled. Not all schools required all items. In this case, we left the cell blank until we could confirm that the item was not required. At that point, we entered the word "None" and set the cell background color to light grey. (Have you perhaps guessed that part of my job involves project management?)</p>
<p>I tried the Excel spreadsheet approach, but a big posterboard with squares was easier. We also had squares for contacts, phone numbers, etc. We also made a bunch of address labels for each school.</p>
<p>Love these tips, thanks BassDad and edad, keep em coming.</p>
<p>Not to the audition phase yet but am trying to put together a spreadsheet to compare schools that will help decide which schools make the wish and hope lists.</p>
<p>You guys are so far beyond me. We had little pieces of paper all over the dining room table. :)</p>
<p>Are there requirements for the pre-audition tapes? I have seen the actual audition requirements on the websites, but not pre-audition stuff, tho it is alluded to plenty.</p>
<p>More of my perspective, as expressed here, is as an educator than as a parent, because "I have sinned grievously" from the parenting role. I do understand that logistics have to be handled, phone calls made when offices are open, applications mailed, etc. I will also admit that when negotiating my son's college exploration logistics, which I thought I had to coordinate, all of us living in different places at the time, I was told by one highly esteemed pedagogue that he would not respond to any inquiries from me, that he would be happy to hear from S and help/accommodate him any way he could, but to butt out. S, who tended to look on me as his "manager", got in very high gear, and he handled everything just fine. It settled many issues for us, and we were very glad it happened. Ultimately they have to take responsibility for what is accomplished in their lives, and as a parent, we will have a better relationship with them, if that is the expectation from the beginning....otherwise we tend to mind terribly if they do not take advantage of all our hard work and help.</p>
<p>Pre-audition (or prescreening) tapes are required only by very selective schools and for very selective majors. Voice, piano, and flute are usually the majors that ask for prescreening tape. If when you check out audition requirements on the websites you cannot find prescreening requirements, etc., it's a good chance that a prescreening tape is not needed for that particular school and/or major.</p>
<p>When I look back at the application/audition process, I am not sure how any of us got through it. It was definitely a family affair. I had the easiest time of it. I just arranged my time off so I could do the driving. I did help with some of the travel plans and applications and did the financial paperwork. My W managed the whole process. She made most of the travel arrangements, helped with the resume, applications (but not essays), researched scholarships, made phone calls, kept track of the punchlist and followed up with missing/lost paperwork. I guess we just did too much. My D had an easy time. She just had to go to school, taking an extended AP workload. She left the house at 6:15 am and was back by about 5:30pm. She tried to practice 3 hours most days, but in addition to audition prep she needed to practice for school, an orchestra and Saturday classes. Tuesday she played in the State U orchestra until 10pm. Saturdays she was gone from 6 am until 7 or 8 pm for a precollege conservatory program. My D wrote piles of essays and short answers, did a half dozen formal auditions and had quite a few interviews, most local. Maybe our situation was a worse than normal, since she was mainly interested in double degrees. Even so I suspect no one has an easy time with auditions at a half dozen or more schools.</p>
<p>I don't think it is remotely possible to generalize about the level of involvement of school and private music teachers in the college application process. My D, a cellist, got no help whatsoever from her school orchestra conductor, with whom she frequently clashed. On the other hand her chorus teacher, beloved of one and all, could not have been more supportive. And her private cello teacher did everything she could to help.</p>
<p>Someone mentioned that public school guidance counselors tend not to know much about the very specialized business of applying to music schools. That was certainly true of my D's, and she was honorable enough to tell us that from the outset. On the other hand, it was she who noticed that my D's grades and SATs made her eligible to apply for a full tuition scholarship from BU, whose music school was already on her list. She won the scholarship, which over her four years at BU saved us about $120,000, and which without this alert counselor we would never have known existed.</p>
<p>I also think it's acceptable for parents to be much more involved in the logistics of conservatory applications than "regular" college applications, if for no other reason than that you're going to be the one schlepping your kid to the auditions.</p>
<p>And fear not: your child will learn quickly what's needed to get along in music. When the time came for grad school auditions, my D did absolutely everything herself.</p>