<p>The student bodies of UT, McGill, and UBC are bigger than what they've got in the American Ivy League or equivalents. And given that the Canadian population is like 10% of America's, of course the Canadian universities are going to be less selective. That's not even factoring in the international applicants which are probably more numerous in American schools because of their rep.</p>
<p>jpps1,
like aca0260 said, finish reading posts before commenting. I said they MIGHT rank high if organizations such as USNEWS weight those heavily, but selectivity-wise, US is much better, and in turn recieves better applicants. </p>
<p>Would you rather go to a school where everyone worked as hard as you did in High School OR with people who slacked all their life getting in with a merit scholarships?</p>
<p>ok well im glad to see that other provinces etc have decent ed. systems but alot of what you are saing ("Im sure Canada is harder than US") is completely without merit and unfounded as you have limited perspectives, biases. I have lived in both countries and have gone to school in Ontario and Newfoundland. Both of these provinces provided sub-par education to me. I can say that I feel ill-equipped going to university because of Canadian secondary school.</p>
<p>Also, I believe the fact that American universities count EVERY course makes it more difficult and better. Do you have any idea how many kids in Canada completely slack of for 3 years and work hard for one year, senior year? Every single person I know did nothing for 3 years and now they are going to Shulich, Ivey, etc...its really a joke</p>
<p>UofT is a very good school...in many ways it can compete with UCLA...there really is no point arguing this because you can argue that York U is better than Harvard and this could go on forever. However, for undergrad, UofT isnt even the best in ontario. You could make a solid argument that Queens and Western provide higher quality eds to undergrads....once again, I will stress that UofT is a good school but its just not a selective university...actually I do believe Western, Queens McGill UBC Guelph all have higher incoming avgs. I will agree that selectivity isnt everything but it is certainly a factor and getting into UofT is not incredibly difficult....add class size, intimacy with profs, etc and youll find that UofT isnt anything special for undergrad.</p>
<p>stanfordlover - you dont have a clue as to what the american ed system is like. There are tons of different ways to get 4.0s in the US. In Canada, Ontario anyways...theres only one route for university: University Track. In the states, you can take regular courses, honors, AP, IB, Dual Enrollment, etc...THAT is why some people easily achieve 4.0's. I will tell you that people who took several AP's struggle to get 4's. And AP's blow University Track out of the water...i mean hell, they give you a university credit for those courses so you can imagine the difficulty.</p>
<p>I find most of the people who are saying "Canada is more difficult" have no idea what theyre talking about. And since you are entitled to your opinion, it would be beneficial to everyone if you would rephrase/limit your outlandish comments.</p>
<p>Canadian schools are rapidly becoming more and more selective each year, as immigrants come to the country and population rises. If you look through a few MacLean's university guides, you'll find entrance averages rising every year. Also, often it only takes a 78% or whatever to get into the big schools, but those who are accepted with those kinds of averages get treated as the bottom-feeders. The better your marks are, the more perks you are offered in terms of early class registration, guaranteed residence accomodation, parking spaces, etc. My friend got into UBC with a 70-something percent average, and she found that she couldn't get any of the courses she wanted because her course registration date was so late. So the better students are definitely rewarded, and tend to fill the classes more than the lesser students. </p>
<p>I don't know about having to care only about Grade 12 grades. When I was applying they looked at your grade 11 and 12 grades. And if you didn't pay attention in Grade 9 and 10, you weren't going to do well later on. </p>
<p>I go to a Canadian LAC with about 30% selectivity, a dedicated student body, small class sizes, large amounts of available grant money, etc. In short, it's awesome, and a fraction of the cost of going to an American LAC. </p>
<p>I went to high school in one province, and have toured to dozens of schools in three other (not really prosperous) provinces, many of them rural schools. In many we found good facilities and bright students being well-taught by their teachers. Again, the Canadian school system does have its flaws, and I think you would have to do a ton of research to say it or the American system is better. But I'd take any school in Canada over learning creationism and whatever's on George Bush's mandated standardized tests by a teacher who also works part-time as a waitress in order to stay above the poverty line in America.</p>
<p>stephable - well I can tell you that few schools reward anyone for having a high avg if they are letting in ppl with 70s for that program. Ive looked into it because Im a little bitter that my 90+ will be treated like a 70+ at most unis. Some unis offer early registration, priority housing like UBC but thats only some. Western Queens McGill UofT do no such thing.</p>
<p>Second - all they care about is grade 12 grades. Grade 11 are used for early admission but grade 9 and 10 are completely disregarded. If you dont see the problem with that I will explain. It treats the ed. process as a Machiavellian system in which all students need to worry about is university entrance, not education itself.</p>
<p>Third - I dont think anyone likes Bush's education reforms, even in the states. I didnt grow up in that kind of system so I never experienced it. I can tell you that Canadian teachers are overpaid, undeservedly. They possess no qualities that their american counterparts do not. It may be unfair that american teachers get paid little (in certain states...you cant make generalizations like that because teachers in Mass, Conn, NY get paid well) but I believe Canadian teachers, who after 10 years make 70k+ do not deserve that kind of money for the ordinary skills. Engineers make a median of 50k and as much as I would like to idealistically believe that teachers are educationing the future, investing in our children...it isnt always the case and there are PLENTY of HORRIBLE teachers who shouldnt be earning a single red cent...much less being allowed to ecnounter young and impressionable minds.</p>
<p>and this (teachers) is where I believe the tax dollars are depriving students of basic neccesities such as books.</p>
<p>isn't weed legal in canada?</p>
<p>I wouldn't argue that Canadian teachers are overpaid. I would argue that American teachers are underpaid. In Japan teachers are paid extremely well, and are very well-respected in society. The results are sky-high levels of literacy and mathematical aptitude that are the envy of most other nations. </p>
<p>I checked for my province, and salaries for teachers top around 70 000, but this is after many years of work and getting a master's degree. By contrast, I don't know what engineers typically top out at, but I know an engineer who is a millionaire, all on his own work. It's offensive to say that they're getting paid for "ordinary skills." Being a high school teacher requires expertise in their subject, patience, creativity, quick-thinking, and so much more. It's not an easy job by any means. I know I couldn't do it. I'm sorry that you've had such bad experiences and your school board was too screwed up to afford books, but that's by no means the norm. And there are PLENTY of HORRIBLE people in any job who don't deserve the money they're getting - doesn't mean we should cut the salaries of the whole group.</p>
<p>When I graduated three years ago, my grade 11 grades were looked at. As for it creating a "Machiavellian system where all students need to worry about is university entrance," that's true for any system, including the American one. Just read these boards. Many of the kids here are doing EC's because they look good on applications, not because they have any sort of passion for them. And they don't take the courses they want to if they won't look good, or get them the highest GPA. They might sacrifice a great class in art for AP Calculus or something like that. </p>
<p>As for incentives for students with 90+ averages, Canadian universities tend to give great grades-based scholarships. I've seen them being given from tons of Canadian schools. And my school has around an 85% entrance average. Not too many people with 70% get in. Furthermore, even if you are going to a school with kids with 70% averages, what's wrong with that? There will be plenty of brilliant, high-scoring kids there, and the kids with lesser high school records will either find they can't cut it in university and drop out, or work hard and contribute just as much to university life as the kids who entered with 90% averages. And for the brightest university students, there are all sorts of honours programs, internships with professors, etc. Plenty of opportunity.</p>
<p>" There are tons of different ways to get 4.0s in the US. In Canada, Ontario anyways...theres only one route for university: University Track. In the states, you can take regular courses, honors, AP, IB, Dual Enrollment, etc..."</p>
<p>aca0260, now I'm convinced that your school is just plain ****ty. I know several private AND public schools in Montreal that offer AP and IB courses...and most also offer honours courses. Again, I'm sorry that your school sucks, but I would not consider it at all representative of the Canadian secondary school system. I found that I was very well-prepared and I (along with some friends and people that I know) had no problem gaining admission to top U.S. schools.</p>
<p>"I said they MIGHT rank high if organizations such as USNEWS weight those heavily, but selectivity-wise, US is much better, and in turn recieves better applicants."</p>
<p>dooit, maybe you didn't listen the first time, but selectivity does not equal academic prestige. Of course the top schools in the U.S. are so selective--there is such a dearth of good mid-tier schools that the top 50 attract such a large portion of the applications, while in Canada, admissions are much more balanced among unis because there is more parity.</p>
<p>jppsi - apparently you dont realize that you have atrocies comprehension skills or simply exhibit complete negligence in understanding others. I want you to reread the portion of my post that you copied and pasted. If you notice I was speaking of the ONTARIO system. You may or may not know this but Montreal is in Quebec, not Ontario. And Ontario is the most heavily populated province in Canada. If a province with the size and influence of Ontario does something, it is reflective of the entire nation, whether you like it or not. Ontario offers two tracks; College bound and University bound. Once again, you have no idea as to what youre talking about. IB is a program. You cannot take courses in IB without being in the program. Having been in the program, I can tell you that it is not for everybody and I find that students who freely take AP courses excel more than IB students. And very few schools in Canada offer AP as AP is an american credit system that is new to Canada. A school is not "****ty or bad" if it does not have APs because APs are not standards in Canada. I dont even think APs are offered at Ontario public schools...Quebec has an entirely different system and I believe most Canadian APs are offered at privates anyways. And just to clarify, im not talking about private schools because private schools are not funded by tax dollars and therefore do not reflect on the nation.</p>
<p>Im sorry if I offended you but I find it amazing that you conjure the energy and exert the effort to refute my points without putting that same effort into reading them carefully. Please attempt to read others' posts carefully.</p>
<p>Firstly, Quebec is the 2nd most populous province, so I don't think it's such a poor indicator of the Canadian high school system.</p>
<p>Secondly, education in Canada is left up to the provinces--and since it is so radically different in each province, as you have pointed out, I think you were being unfair in impugning the entire country when describing your public high school in a mildly populated area. Mine is in a city with almost 10 times as many people. At least two privates on the island offer AP courses, and I know that several publics have IB. I also don't know why you think I don't know what IB is--I merely misspoke, and meant to say that I know of schools that offer AP courses, while I know others that have IB.</p>
<p>Thirdly, private schools in Quebec ARE partly subsidized by the government (which I think is ridiculous, even though I attended one), so they are funded by tax dollars.</p>
<p>I can accept your points about your own school and area, but I don't think that you can fairly expand those to the whole country. At the very least, we have a system based on learning for the sake of learning, and not for an endless gauntlet of standardized tests.</p>
<p>Amen, jpp1.</p>
<p>aca0260, what Ontario does is NOT representative of what the entire nation does. You exhibit the stereotypical Ontario hubris of believing that Ontario=Canada, which is not true at all. You really think that what Ontario wants is what Quebec wants? Or that either of those provinces wants the same thing as Alberta or BC? Or the Maritimes, who have their whole own set of interests, completely different from Ontario's? It's called a federalist system - all provinces have individual identities with individual governments. It's like assuming that what goes on in California is indicative of the whole US. Tyranny-of-the-majority attitudes like yours are the ones that make provinces like Quebec and Alberta want to separate.</p>
<p>I've never heard of any sort of "tracks" in the school system in my province (the third most populous), nor the provinces of my university friends. Any combination of courses, from Calculus to construction, can get you a 4.0. You need a certain amount of academic courses to be considered for university entrance, and it's the grades in those that they focus on, but beyond that, it's carte blanche. It's not overly restrictive at all. And I know many public schools around here that offer AP and IB, but who said that AP and IB owned the market on challenging high school academics? Plenty of schools have their own individual honours courses that are just as good. But Nova Scotia even is getting the IB program, and it's neither a particularly populous nor a prosperous province (don't get me wrong, I love it all the same).</p>
<p>Stephable First - You people seem to think that if ONLY Ontario has a terrible secondary school system, its ok because Canada has several other provinces...that is an awful attitude. Do you understand that Ontario holds 40% of Canada's population? Do you understand that California holds just over 10% of the United States' population? That was a terribly weak analogy and it just doesnt hold up. 40% of the population is a huge deal and regardless of what you may think, if nearly 1 out of every 2 Canadians is suffering from Ontario's education system, in the richest province btw, then that is a BIG deal. Do not label me with an Ontario-hubris attitude...you seem to be jumping the gun when I am being entirely realistic...whether you like it or not, Ontario is a huge portion of Canada and what Ontario does will reflect on the rest of Canada.</p>
<p>Second - You can argue the merit of Advanced Placement as much as you like, its a pointless discussion because it wont get anywhere, but it is recognized program that is awarded UNIVERSITY credit. Try to get a 4.0 in university and you will get a taste of AP (of course uni is harder but not by much). I will tell you that the AP courses I took were LIGHT YEARS ahead of any course Canada had to offer. They are incredibly exhausting courses but you feel rewarded with knowledge. Honors courses are fine but they just arent AP, unless Canadian AP is a joke or something.</p>
<p>Jppsi - mildly populated? Im from the GTA...I have a hard to believing that you live in an area 5x the pop of the GTA.</p>
<p>"learning for the sake of learning"? - wow, you sound like a ministry of education commercial. Didnt you read what I wrote about everyone slacking off for 3 years and then stepping up senior year? Does that sound like people are "learning for the sake of learning"? I find it to be exactly the opposite. Kids are neglecting their studies and doing well senior year only to get what they desire; a spot at a university. Of course, Im not a fan of Bush's new reforms but a little bit of standardized testing is a good thing. Canadians are poor standardized test takers but they are so unaccustomed to it. Too many kids go to these BS private schools (i duno if you have any in Montreal etc but basically kids pay for their grades at shady schools...as in a 95% costs ___ and a 96% costs ___...that I belive there should be some kind of standardized testing, especially in light of the incredibly subjective marking in Ontario).</p>
<p>Id like to add that I went to school in Newfoundland for a year as well. I never went for high school but I believe there are different levels of courses etc. I found the education there to be superior to Ontario actually but it was still nothing to boast about. However, NF is the poorest province in Canada so I can understand its educational troubles.</p>
<p>The discussion on this thread saying that US colleges are better than Canadian colleges seems to base the argument on the fact that US colleges are harder to get into. That doesn't really follow. It a bit like the argument that something must be better because it costs more. Perhaps they are better or worse, but is the best thing that you can say about US colleges the fact that they are more crowded? :) (I'm American.)</p>
<p>jpps I guess you didn't understand me the second time (or the first for that matter)</p>
<p>I ONLY STATED THAT THE NOMINAL PRESTIGE OF CANADIAN UNIVERSITIES ARE NOT AS GREAT AS AMERICAN INSTITUTIONS. I never said Canadian universities are poorly-funded or are of less academic aptitude. </p>
<p>"Tyranny-of-the-majority attitudes like yours are the ones that make provinces like Quebec and Alberta want to separate."
Don't make excuses for those provinces. If you have actually studied this in high school (part of civics), you would know that Quebeckers want to leave because they were forced to unite with Ontario during the American civil war. </p>
<p>Anyways I am straying offtopic, so I want to make my points CLEAR.
The Ontario Curriculum is not as challenging or engaging as many people here brought it up to be.
I never said selectivity has anything to do with the prestige of the institution (rather the fact that the weak student body will have an impact on the university atmosphere).</p>
<p>And jpps, I hope you will try to understand others' perspectives (or at least stop misinterpreting) before starting ridiculous flame wars.</p>
<p>As another person who attended both a Canadian university and an US Ivy league university, I can tell you I found my undergrad academic experiences just as comparable. I do give the Ivies their props for faculty/student ratio but the quality of education at my Canuck university was on par to my Ivy League one. </p>
<p>I think a lot of people posting are using bad experiences to generalize. Just cause you had a bad experience in the sytem doesn't mean that applies to everyone or the whole system.</p>
<p>There have been numerous postings on this board about Americans coming to a Canadian university and finding it WAY too hard. And I know myself a few Americans who encountered this. Plus, there's the whole grade deflation at Canadian universities, most notably Queen's, Toronto and McGill. And my U.S. profs were impressed with my Canadian education. </p>
<p>And who said American high schools were superior never attended a public high school in New York City, where many students stand no hope of going to a university unless they attend a private school.</p>
<p>this post is getting a little heated up...lets cool it down. All I'm saying is that a 90% in a Canadian high school is not equivalent to a 90% in an American high school. I saw on one post that American universities add 10% to Canadian applicants because school in Canada is harder. Can anybody confirm this?</p>
<p>Oh and by the way, to tell you the truth I want to be American and live in America but those who treat the Canadian education system like s**t obviously don't know what they are talking about. I have many close relatives all over the States so I can relate on the material that is taught in both systems.</p>
<p>Who are you talking to? I'm Canadian :)</p>
<p>OK, aca0260, if you're going to insist that Ontario is representative of Canada as a whole, I'll just say that I have friends who went to public schools in Toronto, Ottawa, Oakville, Kingston, Peterborough, North Bay, and Barrie. Their educational experiences were varied but with many positive aspects along with the negative.</p>
<p>Each school's honour program is different, and unless you went to every single school and saw what they were offering, you couldn't really judge. My guess is some of the honours programs are less rigourous, and some are more rigourous than AP. And many schools DO offer AP or IB. My school didn't offer AP courses, but my Lit teacher did offer anyone who wanted to the chance to take the AP test for university credit. Two of us did the test with very little prep - just one practice test first - and got the credit.</p>
<p>Dooit, I know the history of Quebec and its issues with the rest of Canada. I'm just saying that attitudes like Ontario's exacerbate the problem, and serve to motivate other provinces to adopt Quebec's attitude.</p>
<p>As for standardized testing, both BC and Alberta have a strict course of standardized testing that one must undergo to pass academic Grade 12 courses. BC recently changed the system to extend into the lower grades, too. </p>
<p>Kids are still going to be penalized if they've slacked off until senior year, then decide to work hard. First, it's harder to break bad work habits than maintain good one. Also, certain courses, especially ones like math, build on each other from year to year. Plus, if you haven't learned how to structure an essay in a clear format with grammatically correct language, Grade 12 is NOT the time to learn. Plus, my grade 11 marks were looked at at every university I applied to. Gaming the high school system for university admission is not unique to Canadians, anyhow.</p>