<p>yeah you are certainly right stephable...i live in BC and they are now counting every class from grade 10 and up (I think they are counting grade 9 too...im not sure)</p>
<p>stanfordlover - "those who treat the Canadian education system like s**t obviously don't know what they are talking about."</p>
<p>I think Ive demonstrated quite clearly that I know what Im talking about...i have provided stats, and have at the least attempted to prove my points...by saying a bogus statement like that without any proof, you do a diservice to this thread and yourself.</p>
<p>stephable - Ontario is not ENTIRELY representative butu have to understand that 40% is a huge chunk...and it represents canada enough to put a sour spell on the education system.</p>
<p>Second - you are proving my point exactly. Honors programs completely vary...that is the beauty of AP. AP is a standardized system that achieves academic quality. Anyone, especially adcoms, will take AP over any type of honors course hands-down...if you dotn believe me, ask one.</p>
<p>Third - You may believe that breaking a habit might be hard, but again im telling you from personal experience that almost everyone I know who has above an 85% avg had 60s in grade 11. It doesnt really surprise me because the Ontario curric. isnt that challenging. Do you actually believe this is superior to the american process of every course counting?</p>
<p>But AP IS in the Canadian system! I don't really care what adcoms think either, because the Canadian system doesn't really deal in adcoms. At the end of grade 12, I took 5 2-and-a-half hour exams in all sorts of different subjects, counting for 40% of my final mark. These exams were taken by students all through the province, then sent to Victoria and marked by teachers hired by the Ministry of Exducation. How's that for a "standardized system that achieves academic quality?" And no, it didn't get us any college credit, but my regular old English Lit course more than prepared me to get a 5 on the AP exam. And once again, I know people from all across Ontario who do not condemn their public education there. And everywhere I applied, I had to submit a transcript of Grade 11 and 12 marks. But if kids want to coast through high school and work hard in grade 12, so be it. They should have been working all along anyhow, to develop the base skills they're going to need to understand the world they live in, college or not. If they get to college and find that they never developed the motivation or work ethic to survive it, they'll drop out. There are plenty of us who worked hard all throughout high school, and are continuing to work hard in university.</p>
<p>ACA if you could skip only 3 classes in an american high school you are the biggest nerd ever lol . I did the IB program which is supposed to be the most strenous of all academic programmes in the US and I not only played a couple of school sports but also took part in tons of activities. I skipped classed all the time and in the end didnt really make a difference. I got an awesome GPa and SAT which in turn got me into some awesome schools and I am not the only one who could do it.</p>
<p>Face it American high school is easy lol even people with all ap classes or IB dont complain until the end of the year when they have exams; before that you have the time of your life lol. </p>
<p>Hmm but you did open up an intresting argument, PEOPLE AM I MAKING A MISTAKE OF CHOOSING UWATERLOO OVER ILLINOIS INSTITUTE OF TECHNOLOGY ?</p>
<p>I don't know anything about Illinois, but I do have a friend doing Engineering at Waterloo. He's currently doing a co-op program with a bunch of other Waterloo students for Microsoft in Seattle. Many of Waterloo's programs are internationally recognized and very prestigious. So no, I don't think you're making a mistake.</p>
<p>Choose Waterloo
I Dont Think Anyone Has Heard Of Illionios</p>
<p>omg HOW DID YOU TYPE IN ALL CAPS</p>
<p>Alberta also has a province-wide standardized test that students take in grade 3, 6, 9, and 12. These tests are written on the same day across the province, and sent to Edmonton for grading.</p>
<p>About slacking in school and then working hard in grade 12, I'm not sure what other provinces do, but in Alberta there's different "levels" of courses. A studentĀs grades in grade 9 will help to determine which ĀlevelĀ they take. I'll use math as an example. The "bestĀ progression of math courses is Pure Math 10/20/30 and Math 31 (Calculus). In order to get into Math 10, one has to receive a minimum of 80% in Math 9 (grade 9 math). If a student receives a grade between 70% and 80% then they can either go into the Pure Math track or the Applied Math track (I think it might be teacher discretion). If a student receives a grade between 55% and 70%, then they are put into the Applied Math track. If below 55%, then they are in Math 14/24.</p>
<p>The majority of universities require Pure Math, and either will not accept Applied Math, or not look very favourable at Applied. If a student is in Applied but want to go into Pure, they have to ĀupgradeĀ (take summer courses, etc.) before they are allowed into Pure. If a student is in Pure but does very poorly, then they can be moved down into Applied.</p>
<p>This is the same for all of the core subjects. So technically a student could "coast" through grade 10 and 11, receiving 60%, but even if they pick up the slack in grade 12, they would be in the "unfavourable" courses.</p>
<p>well im glad to see that BC and Alberta have much better ed systems...it defintely sounds like they do. However, together, those provinces compose about 20% of Canada's pop. They could have the best ed systems in the world, and it wouldnt make a difference if the rest of Canada could potentially be in the Dark Ages. As for the slacking through high school point, you still havent answered my question...Wouldnt it be better if all teh courses counted? I dont care of "its harder to break a bad habit etc"...wouldnt it be just all around better "for the sake of learning" if all teh courses mattered. (I know BC and Alberta accomodate what im saying to some degree so dont feel like you need to repeat yourselves again)</p>
<p>nomad - you mustve lived in a leniant state...try the South. They take your license away if you miss 30 classes total a year. Ive missed about 20 classes in each of my Canadian classes so I would be royalled screwed. Noone at my school skipped and I also played football etc and could never skip.</p>
<p>I guess heres my point...alot of people have this misconception that canadian university offers a tremendous amount of quality for a cheap price, even for internationals. That may be true for kids in Idaho or Wyoming, who dont have solid state schools, but most states offer better alternatives through their state schools. University of Florida is 2k a year for a resident. University of Toronto is like 5-6k a year for an ontario resident. American state schools offer comparable, if not better quality in most states to their canadian counterparts. Take a look at the USNEWs ranking. 53 of the 100 top universities in the United States are state schools. I think americans should be very proud of their post-sec public education. Canada offers nothing that public america does not...maybe less (tuition prices, larger sizes, etc).</p>
<p>As for sizes - I go to a public Canadian LAC that has 2500 students. And since Canada doesn't charge extra for out-of-province students, the university is open to all Canadian students who get accepted for a much lower price than American LAC's. It has small class sizes, tons of professor interaction, academic rigour, etc. And it's not the only one of its kind.</p>
<p>I love that, in your mind, the education systems of BC/Alberta, which account for 20%+, don't matter at all, but Ontario's 40% gives a complete picture of the country as a whole. At what point does a minority become significant? 25%? 39%? If the other 60% of the country's education systems were fabulous, would it matter at all? Or would we all still be the "minority" to Ontario's 40%? And I've explained, time and again, that I know people from all over Ontario, from Greater Toronto to the Ottawa Valley to way up north, and they all had much more positive experiences than yours. Though I expect that next thing you're going to be saying that what goes on in Ontario doesn't really count unless it happens in Toronto, cause it has the most people. </p>
<p>Grade 9 and 10 don't count formally in admission, but they more than count indirectly. Kids who goof off in those years are going to miss out on developing skills they'll need later on (for instance, the use of apostrophes). If they're the kind of kids who are only interested in doing well to land themselves in a good university, and don't have any sort of internal motivation to learn and grow, they're not going to be great assets to a university anyhow. And university is all about the internal motivation, so they're going to have big problems once they get there. I don't know a lot of kids at my uni. who got there by only caring about scores on tests in grade 12. Most have had active interest and involvement in subjects both inside and outside the classroom since high school.</p>
<p>I've spoken to several professors who have worked at both Canadian schools and American state u's. They all say that the Ivy-like schools may have Canadian schools beat, but most of our schools are vastly higher in academic quality than many state u's. I've read some stuff about quality of work and plagiarism at certain southern universities that makes my hair stand up on end.</p>
<p>aca0260 you just wont give up wont you...i think your dilemma was that you went to a really bad school in ontario and then you made the transition to a good school in the states...and to answer your question on counting all courses...I disagree because then students would take these "GPA booster" courses instead of the more rigorous courses...I know at UBC they accumulate your GPA based on the provincial examinable courses...even though I said i disagree with counting all your courses in your gpa, in my case I would agree because my gpa would then be higher :)</p>
<p>stephable - you are wrong on several grounds. First, out-of-province have to pay extra in Canada. McGill costs 1500 for Quebec rezs and 5k for out of province, check your stats (Macleans). Second, you are comparing public to private...of course american private lacs are going to cost more than publics, its common sense. The fact of the matter is that there are nto many high quality public lacs in the states but they do exist. New College of Florida is an example (i realize you are unfamiliar with teh school but its an honors college which is highly competitve in admission). </p>
<p>Second, go back and read my post CAREFULLY. I said Ontario is a large enough province that its actions do reflect partly on the entire nation. You cannot treat Ontario as 1/10 of Canada when it holds nearly half the nation's population...that would be tyranny of the MINORITY. If you want to misinterpret what I said, they way many jumpy minorites (provincially speaking) do thats fine...but thats my point in plain english.</p>
<p>Third, you seem to be avoiding my question. I understand your logic in saying university will sift through the unmotivated grade seekers etc...but it doesnt have to come to that. If you make all the grades count in high school then you dont have to deal with that trouble so why wouldnt u? Lets face it, college admissions are based entirely on one year...is that really enough? (I understand grade 11 is used for early admission but it doesnt count)</p>
<p>About the state u's - Yes, Canadian schools are vastly superior to SOME state u's...I will grant you that. There isnt a tremendous range in quality concerning canadian universities as there is in the states in general. However, there are more than enough quality state u's to make that a small concern. Like I said, there are 52 state u's ranked in the top 100. If you dont think top 100 is a big deal (most canadians dont), you have to realize that there are almost 300 million people in the US and that Canada has 1/10 of the US population. That would make any school in the top 100, comparable to a top 10 school in Canada. So there are more top 10 state u's in the states than there are states in total...I think the US is doing fine for itself in post-sec ed and i believe every single one of those schools is comparable if not better to their canuck counterparts. Of course there are poor state schools in the smaller states but that is, of course reflective of the federal nature of the US, as you discussed. The US is more federal than Canada. For example, each state has its own criminal laws, statutes etc whereas Canada only has one. Each state is held more responsible for finance than each province in Canada. Its a process Reagan called Devolution. Thus, there is a larger range in quality in state schools compared to canadian public schools...but like i said, those lesser schools reflect lesser demand, less electorate.</p>
<p>stanfordlover - i applaud stephable for go point for point with me about the topic. You sem to be stuck on the topics ive addressed multiple times. MY SCHOOL IS RANKED AT THE TOP OF MY REGION. If my school was so terrible, how does that reflect on the governing body that deemed it to be the best...the province of ontario declared my school to be the best in my region...how does that reflect on ontario, canada?</p>
<p>Second, you dont understand american admissions. People who take bird courses and get 4.0's are obviously not given as high a standing as those who work their butts off taking APs. Like I said, there are a number of ways to achieve 4.0s and you can either take the easy route or the hard route....but dont think that people wont realize the route that you have selected. One look at your transcript will tell all. You are naive to think otherwise.</p>
<p>actually you dont know what you are talking about because in my previous post i commented that i have several relatives in the states and their schedule involves many ap courses. they seem to be saying the opposite thing of what you are saying. we also compare our schools curriculum and all of them could not believe the difficulty of the BC EDUCATION SYSTEM.</p>
<p>Stephable: What LAC do you go to? It sounds great. Where is it?</p>
<p>Florus: I go to Mt. Allison in Sackville, New Brunswick. Similar schools are St. Francis Xavier, Acadia, St. Thomas, Bishop's, and Mount Saint Vincent, among others. They don't have the endowments of American private LACs, but most of them are impressive in their own right.</p>
<p>Aca: Quebec is the exception, but most other provinces (BC, Alberta, Ontario, the Maritimes) do not charge extra for out-of-province students. The New College of Florida looks nice but if you're not from Florida, you're paying $20K to go there. Does each state provide such nice options for its students?</p>
<p>Of course there are good state u's in the US (the UCs, UMich..). Both the US and Canada provide a completely satisfactory array of universities for their people - though America's are not always at a satisfactory price.</p>
<p>As for your school being top-ranked, be very wary of rankings. In BC, the Fraser Institute publishes its big annual ranking of secondary schools each year. This is supposed to be a really big deal, but in reality it takes only one factor into account: scores on Grade 12 provincials, the end-of-the-year standardized tests. It doesn't look at university entrance rates, or crime rates, or amounts of ECs and sports offered, or teacher's salaries, or anything else. Often rankings like these are published by private institutions who have their own agenda. Even the Maclean's university rankings....my school gets extra points for having lots of out-of-provinces students, but two other provinces are within a less-than-half-hour drive from it. Compare that to UBC, where the closest province is a 13-hour drive. Of course my school has the advantage, but it doesn't mean it should get more overall points for being a better institution. My guess is your ranking system is skewed in one way or another. I know plenty of Ontarians who went to schools that were certainly not top-ranked, and were well-educated.</p>
<p>No, I don't think it would be better if grade 9 and 10 were taken into account. In grade 9 and 10 many kids are unsure of their paths, just trying to feel comfortable in high school (I know I was), and I wouldn't want to see them penalized. Canadian admissions is not a very competitive system for the most part, and there's no need to put extra pressure on young high school students. Let them discover for themselves what makes them tick, and then work from there, rather than putting them on the conveyor belt.</p>
<p>Actually Ontario does charge extra for out of province university students.
case in point:</p>
<p>Fees for international students u of t, engineering:</p>
<p>Domestic:</p>
<p>Quite a bit more wouldn't you say.</p>
<p>Uhh...I meant out-of-province but still within Canada.</p>
<p>stephable</p>
<p>1) my point was that there are 52 state universities ranked in the top 100 so that you dont HAVE to go out of state. Of course there are some states that suffer because they have less people. But less people also means less demand...that is the federal structure. If you want to talk about tuition, go check out the in-state tuition for University of Florida and compare that to University of Toronto or any other Canuck university. This is also quite startling because Canadians pay so much income and sales tax. Florida is not the only state that has such decent prices. And quality state schools exist outsdide the UC's and Michigan. I encourage you to look at the USNews. For all its flaws, it will at the least give you a taste of state universities in the states. For example, intl's dont realize that UNC is such a good school. It is ranked ahead of Tufts etc.</p>
<p>2) My point about the ranking was misleading. My school has a very good reputation. It is known in the area to be superior to several other schools. The ranking was just something objective I wanted to offer. My school is seen by parents, teachers, board members, administraters as a quality school when it is very sub-par</p>
<p>3) I agree that grades 9 and 10 shouldnt count very much. I know I was lost in grade 9 as well. But thats why american admissions takes that into acount and acknowledges upward trends. I believe at the least that Grade 11 and grade 12 should count. One year, like i said before, is insufficient to gauge a student's potential and quality.</p>
<p>stanfordlover - ok youre right...i dont know what im talking about...even though I provide personal observations, statistics, logical arguments...What do you provide. Once again, you put forth an incredibly unfounded statement. All you say is random, subjective BS. Since you are the divine spirit and you know all, I dont even know why you waste your time on a forum. </p>
<p>Also, wait a minute. Are you saying that regular canadian courses are tougher than AP's??? (if yes then there is no point discussing this because you are so off its ridiculous. I have taken BOTH. That means I completly KNOW what Im talking about and I dont rely on knowledge taken from relatives or anyone else. I have been there, I KNOW. In addition, if these courses are so tough, then why dont universities give credit to regular canuck courses, the same way they give APs? You want me to tell you the answer? It is because they are not universal, incredibly subjective, and generally weaker than Advanced Placement.</p>
<p>You guys are idiots.:)</p>
<p>Dooit, if you think this thread is junk, then skip over it.</p>
<p>Aca0260 - I'm sorry your school had a reputation it doesn't deserve, especially in light of the fact that there are apparently many superior schools in Ontario that don't enjoy such notoriety. I haven't heard any such high school horror stories from my Ontarian friends.</p>
<p>Only like 10 states have public schools in the top 50. And there's at least 10 states that don't crack the top 100. So yeah, great cheap educational opportunities for many US citizens - but not all. No American student should have trouble finding a good-quality school - until they factor in cost. I agree that Canadian schools are getting disturbingly expensive. In my own university this is becoming quite a controversy. But I would prefer Canada not look to the US as a model for affordable post-secondary education.</p>
<p>I totally agree that grade 11 and 12 marks should be look at. Clearly we are working off different experiences because when I applied to schools, my grade 11 marks were taken into consideration. It wouldn't have made sense to only look at grade 12 marks, since I only had one or two semesters' worth of marks when I applied. I just checked for my school, and found this sentence:</p>
<p>The Admissions Office will review your last two years of study prior to university.</p>
<p>So they haven't changed their policy. I would hope (and think) other Canadian schools follow the same procedure.</p>