A positive spin on the Greek system

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<p>That is not really what I meant, PG. </p>

<p>For example, in the case Desdunes at Cornell, I think that the the fraternity’s national headquarters of Sigma Alpha Epsilon house should not be “satisfied” by the five year suspension imposed by Cornell but should have withdrawn the recognition of the local chapter permanently. This is not the lacrosse team being penalized by the tennis team, but a national chapter imposing a death penalty on one of its chapters and sending a clear message instead of the usual platitudes and promises to take corrective actions. </p>

<p>People in this thread complain about unwarranted generalizations. And that is fair. What I do not really read is the most basic acknowledgment that fraternities that contributed to the death of a pledge committed an extreme act. All the talk seem to point to the rogue behavior of a few, and even if that were true, why it so hard to agree that such organization should NO LONGER be authorized in the vicinity the campus where the death occured?</p>

<p>This is not about punishing the law abiding organizations but correctly dealing with the ones that show a total disregard for rules and humanity. </p>

<p>Fwiw, the wrongful deaths do not seem to be haphazard:</p>

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<p>Those cases are a few years apart. I am sure they repeated the same hollow promises of having better supervision. The memo from LSU did not get to Cal Poly and surely was ignored by the Cornell frat boys. </p>

<p>And so it goes … one death at a time. Does anyone want to bet that between September and Christmas, there will be one fraternity in the news? And for a similar case?</p>

<p>And you know what … it might be one of your kids, or a kid of someone you know, or a member of this forum. Then the story will take a new dimension. Just as it did for me when my best friend died a few days after starting school in Colorado.</p>

<p>The cost of the f/s depends on the size of the house. The house with smaller numbers is more expensive, since there are less to split the costs.</p>

<p>A sorority or frat can extend financial aid by not requiring a member who is short of money to pay the never ending dues and expenses. The consequence is that he won’t be listed in the national register and be bugged the rest of his life for donations.</p>

<p>F/S also have jobs to cover expenses, should one choose to meet his obligations that way.</p>

<p>Parents usually focus on the drinking aspect as the big, negative safety hazard with Greek life. However, there are others that are dangerous. These include treasure hunts that last twelve hours and require driving around in blizzard conditions, hazing that involves long distance travel in blizzard conditions, etc. Of course the Universities websites says these things are outlawed. If your child tells you (as mine did) you are sworn to secrecy. You won’t report the f/s because nothing will change.</p>

<p>My H’s frat lost their house/recognition just on account of that.^^ But nobody was physically hurt. :slight_smile:
A few years ago, a parent complained about the terrors of the treasure hunt and the frat was kicked out. H thinks it had more to do with the enrollment of many, many more women and a sorority house was a priority.</p>

<p>^Isn’t the name of thread “A positive spin…”, I am sure there are many other threads on negative spin.</p>

<p>Pizzagirl: </p>

<p>As it happens, at least back in my day, Skull and Bones was very ethnically and socioeconomically diverse. There were always a couple of legacies, but for the most part getting tapped there was a recognition of achievement. Yale itself was hardly a model of diversity, but Bones was probably more diverse than the overall population of men from which it drew. (It was supremely un-diverse at the time when it came to gender, of course. Everyone had the same equipment. What they liked to do with it did vary, though.) And it didn’t cost anything to be in Bones. Members had to set aside a lot of time to engage in whatever silly, narcissistic stuff they did there, but I never heard about anyone having to drop out to get more hours working in the cafeteria. By the time they were seniors, BMOCs tended to have developed cash flow.</p>

<p>As for the less famous Yale senior societies, some were more diverse than others, that’s true. Some of the less well-funded were also less diverse, but some of the well-funded were less diverse, too. Since the whole institution involved less than 3% of the students in the college, and loomed really, really small in general social life, I don’t remember anyone caring much.</p>

<p>Anyway, I would love to say that the senior societies were just like fraternities. Except they weren’t, because they were limited to seniors, they were really small, and either they were completely closed (in which case no parties, and often girlfriends or boyfriends weren’t even allowed in), or they were pretty open and maybe gave one party a year. If you asked me about Fence Club, I would say that was just like a fraternity, but minus any of the good parts of a fraternity – no brotherhood, no good works, just an excuse to drink and be snooty. Even its members weren’t enthusiastic.</p>

<p>The Harvard final clubs? Same deal – just like a fraternity, but worse. The only saving grace is that, The Social Network aside, as far as I can tell no one cares about them except their members and a few dozen wannabes. I have always thought that Princeton eating clubs were fraternities. The only difference there is that you really have to work hard NOT to join one.</p>

<p>(I’ll admit, though, that things may have changed a lot in the last three decades. When I was in college, we were awash in officially sponsored alcohol, and the last thing anyone needed was someplace else to go drink, especially someplace with no women. Since I’m sure mixers now require ID and cash to get served, and college budgets don’t pay for beer teams and Wednesday afternoon whiskey sour parties, there may be more of a premium on being in a private club with decent party space and no official oversight.)</p>

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Well, those three things are different from each others and from Greek systems in pretty important ways. For example, the secret societies at Yale and the Princeton eating clubs are all co-ed. All three also vary a lot in terms of what impact they have on the campus as a whole–something that also varies among Greek systems.</p>

<p>Cross-posted with JHS: my experience at Yale also. I was never aware of anybody I knew actually being in one of the secret societies, although I’m sure some of them were.</p>

<p>There are local coed fraternities thorughout the US system. Ripon has one as an example. </p>

<p>As to whether or not SAE will return to Cornell when the 5-year suspension is up has not yet been decided. The national organization may decide that it is not worth the expense or they may feel they don’t have the local alumni support to recolonize. After that time, Cornell may also decide not to allow them to recolonize either. It is long process.</p>

<p>Xiggi…</p>

<p>I understand you are frustrated that SAE was suspend for 5 years. But it was not the “house” that killed the member and it was not SAE that killed him either. It was a group of INDIVIDUALS that made really bad choices in their own personal actions that evening. SAE as a national organization can recolonize and use the opportunity to set a new standard of behavior that can build a better community. Not one member of the “new” SAE will have any active knowledge or will have participated in the dealth of this young man. By your own arguement, if a person murders someone and goes to jail, when their jail term is up then their children and their children’s children should continue to pay the price for the crime eventhough they have nothing to do with it. Your desire for justice should be directed to the individual charges of the people directly involved in this man’s death.</p>

<p>CS</p>

<p>^agree…including recognition of the fact that fraternity members are adults who participate voluntarily in fraternity activities.</p>

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<p>I am not frustrated. Just disgusted. </p>

<p>I simply do not buy the excuses and platitudes. And there are none that could justify giving this organization yet another chance after five years. There is enough evidence that the SAME organization will not stop their criminal practices, and this until they are stopped permanently. </p>

<p>I hope the current legal action for the Cornell wrongful death results in more than a hollow settlement. </p>

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<p>Another extremely poor analogy. It is obvious that action has been taken against the fraternity and the chapter.</p>

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<p>If there was no pledge system, I would agree with you. </p>

<p>I’ll open up this question for discussion: is the pledge process important? Does the benefits outweigh the costs?</p>

<p>“The Harvard final clubs? Same deal – just like a fraternity, but worse. The only saving grace is that, The Social Network aside, as far as I can tell no one cares about them except their members and a few dozen wannabes.”</p>

<p>I don’t know why it’s any different with frats or why anyone should care except their members. Join or don’t, who cares?</p>

<p>I dont think the pledge process is important, since you asked. I dont condone hazing or enforced drinking or demeaning activities. My experience and my H’s wasn’t like that at all. A few rituals, light hearted activities, and the like.</p>

<p>I wanted to weigh in another perspective on why so much “negativity” directed towards the Greek system pops up on CC.</p>

<p>I went to a school where the Greek system was very popular among many students. Even though only a small percentage (something like 17%) of UGs at my alma mater are actually in frats and sororities, the schools seems to have a reputation of being a “big Greek school.” I personally made the decision not to rush a sorority for many reasons – cost, being a major factor, but also the fact that I was very different than the “typical” sorority girl my school. I am sure that had I gone to a small LAC where the sororities would have been less image-focused and competitive, I would have joined – but at my alma mater, the Greek system is cutthroat and I wouldn’t have been selected either way.</p>

<p>My boyfriend was in a frat at our school, though, and I experienced a lot of the college’s Greek life through that route. Many of my close girlfriends were also in houses, and I was a witness to their experiences as well. </p>

<p>While in college, I saw many instances where the ideals and values expressed in the article linked in this thread’s original post manifested themselves in the Greek system. I don’t think anyone who looks negatively upon frats and sororities denies that they can be like surrogate families and support groups for their members. </p>

<p>Similarly, while parents might view the “partying” ways of the Greek system in a negative light, I don’t think many students consider this a “good” or “bad” thing. In fact, I can say that most non-Greeks at my school didn’t care that the Greek culture was largely based around partying; the opinion was actually quite neutral. As long as it didn’t affect us, we didn’t care.</p>

<p>Based upon my experience in college, and hearing from people who rushed/didn’t rush/dropped out of their house, I think the major negative viewpoint held by most people who don’t like the Greek system has to do with the presupposed “Exclusivity” of the system that exists at Greek-heavy schools.</p>

<p>It’s very easy to dislike an organization that selects people based upon their looks and their family’s financial background. At my college, when you applied to rush, you had to submit your family’s tax returns. Some houses, if your parents didn’t make a ton of money, would immediately drop you from their rush groups for that very reason. Similarly (but this mostly went for sororities) if you didn’t embody a specific “physical ideal” for one of the more “elite” houses at the school, you also would be immediately rejected.</p>

<p>For those of you struggling to understand, try to imagine yourself in these two scenarios:</p>

<p>You’re an outgoing, friendly and intelligent female college freshman who has a history of being well-liked by everyone you run into. You would very much like to rush a sorority at your Greek-heavy college. However, you are also overweight and not “conventionally attractive.” Upon seeing how all the sorority members at your college look, you become reluctant to rush. You do, but are rejected by all the houses you wanted to be a part of.</p>

<p>You’re a popular, successful and talented male college freshman attending a big-name school on full-scholarship. You were prom king, on the varsity football team and valedictorian – so why shouldn’t you join a frat at your Greek-heavy school? One problem – you come from a low-income family and you’re a first-generation college student. The frats at your school are very “old money” and because of your family’s background, you fail to receive a bid at any house.</p>

<p>If you were in either of these situations, how could you look upon the Greek system in a favorable light? For the record, I’ve seen both of these situations play out in my University’s Greek system. Things like this DO HAPPEN, as much as anyone on CC will try to deny it. (Again, this is at the Greek-heavy schools, and probably doesn’t happen as much in other Greek environments that aren’t so competitive.)</p>

<p>In the “top tier” and “respected” sororities at my University, there was not ONE overweight or obese female. The only house without conventionally attractive women was also the house that was the butt of every frat house’s jokes. They were the house that was never asked to invites, never paired up for exchanges, etc. Additionally, my roommate junior year who was a year younger joined a house her sophomore year. Upon receiving a bid, she was told she had to lose 10 lbs and dye her hair lighter as soon as possible. She was already thin, pretty and very physically fit – but she did as she was told and the next day, she was bleach blonde. How is something like that OK?</p>

<p>It’s this exclusivity and “holier than thou” attitude held by many Greeks at my alma mater why I hold a generally negative view of the system. If I had gone to another school, I admit I might hold a different view – but for now, I have problems speaking positively about an organization that only cares about how you look and how much money you have, rather than your personality and what you can bring to a house.</p>

<p>Sorry, long post!</p>

<p>I feel the pledge practice actually makes it more voluntary. I know in the sorority world you have to register for recruitment. There is no one from Panhellenic that comes to your house, puts a gun to head, and forces you to register for recruitment…it is 100% voluntary.</p>

<p>And when someone files suit again a “chapter” and the “fraternity” directly, they are simply following the money trail. You can’t have either without the individuals that are members. It is the individual members that fill the shells. What ever happened to individual responsibility? In any organization you will have rules. And there will always be individuals that break them.</p>

<p>And since you didn’t like my last analogy…how about this one. The Catholic Church is fully aware they have a sex offender issue with its priesthood. So under your “ban them for life mentality”, should the Catholic Church just close its doors? Should every parish ever to have a priest that took the wrong road be closed? How many boys and men have to have their lives destroyed before a change is made? I don’t have the answer to those questions, but I do know there are good men and women in the Catholic Church. Just as there are good men and women in the Greek system.</p>

<p>Zelda, sounds like your alma mater is a school with a lot of spoiled children. You might have had a better greek experience elsewhere.</p>

<p>^ Wow, mature coming from a parent! I could say a lot of stupid outdated stereotypes about UCLA – but I won’t because unlike most people, I also acknowledge that UCLA is a great school and will continue being a great school if the UC money issue is solved.</p>

<p>“At my college, when you applied to rush, you had to submit your family’s tax returns. Some houses, if your parents didn’t make a ton of money, would immediately drop you from their rush groups for that very reason. Similarly (but this mostly went for sororities) if you didn’t embody a specific “physical ideal” for one of the more “elite” houses at the school, you also would be immediately rejected.”</p>

<p>As for the first part of that post, I am going to choose to believe actual Greek members from USC that are current members calling BullSHI(. Sorry if I don’t take your word for it. In reality, that is what rec letters are for, dear. A tax return would be gauche.
As for the sororities there, I have photographic evidence from years and years of pledge classes on another site that show that although there are definitely the typical Ell Wood beautiful blondes, there are girls of all shapes, sizes, colors and creeds at the school. I also personally wrote a rec letter for a wonderful young woman who was initiated last year that is there on a full tuition scholarship. How exactly did she get in? A winning personality, great recs, wonderful ECs and absolute poise and grace.</p>

<p>“At my college, when you applied to rush, you had to submit your family’s tax returns.”</p>

<p>I call BS on this one. Absolute nonsense. My business partner was in a sorority at USC, and her daughter just finished her first year there and pledged a sorority. I won’t deny USC has an intense rush, but that is complete nonsense that you’re required to submit tax returns. You need to stop telling lies.</p>